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AIR FORCE Airmen being retrained for US Army roles!

1.1K views 30 replies 15 participants last post by  norm(the 12 sec dual su dude)  
#1 ·
As someone who served in the USAF, I'm sure our airmen are just thrilled at being retrained as Army soldiers. I guess this is Bushie's way of lowering morale in the Air Force just as he has done for the US Army and Marines. BTW, from what I have read the Supply Lines are the most vulnerable to attack so I'm sure this job will gets LOTS of volunteers.............



By Mark Mazzetti and Greg Miller Times Staff Writers
Tue Oct 11, 7:57 AM ET



WASHINGTON — Straining to find ground troops to maintain its force levels in Iraq and Afghanistan, the Pentagon has begun deploying thousands of Air Force personnel to combat zones in new jobs as interrogators, prison sentries and gunners on supply trucks.


The Air Force years ago banked its future on state-of-the-art fighter jets and billion-dollar satellites. Yet the service that has long avoided being pulled into ground operations is now finding that its people — rather than its weapons — are what the Pentagon needs most as it wages a prolonged war against a low-tech, insurgent enemy.

Individual branches have spent decades carving out unique roles within the U.S. military, and Air Force officials insist that the redeployment of its personnel is temporary. Nonetheless, the reassignments come as another sign that the Pentagon is struggling to meet the demands of what military officials have begun calling "the long war."

As part of the effort, more than 3,000 Air Force personnel are being assigned new roles. And they are being dispatched to combat zones for longer tours of duty — as much as 12 months rather than four.

The changes within the Air Force, even if temporary, run counter to Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld's overall vision of the military as a lighter, faster and more lethal force that relies on technology and efficiency to accomplish national security goals more quickly.

The situation also represents a reversal of sorts for the Air Force, which had played a dominant role in recent conflicts, including the 1991 Persian Gulf War and the war to expel Serbian troops from Kosovo.

"At that point the Air Force looked to be the dominant service," said Steve Kosiak, a military analyst at the independent Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments.

"That has changed."

In the ongoing conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq, Kosiak said, the Army has been the dominant branch.

"It's been the Army, and the Air Force has played a supporting role," Kosiak said.

Air Force officials said they are expecting to commit another 1,000 airmen to missions such as guarding prisons and driving trucks over the next few years, but they don't plan to make these jobs "core competencies" within the Air Force.

Pentagon planners believe that the counterinsurgency battles being waged in Iraq and Afghanistan could become the norm for the U.S. military. And, with the Pentagon engaged in a top-to-bottom assessment of the U.S. military's missions — an exercise known as the Quadrennial Defense Review — the high-flying service could be spending more time on the ground in the years ahead, Air Force officials said.

One urgent problem now being addressed by the Air Force is the shortage of trained interrogators to question the thousands of detainees being held in U.S. military prisons in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Reeling from a shortage of personnel specializing in military intelligence as well as from abuse scandals in the treatment and interrogation of detainees, the military is in the midst of a major overhaul to deal with the issue. In the next five years, the Pentagon plans to add 9,000 military intelligence personnel, including more than 3,000 new interrogators.

"The demand side is that there are people being put into the system that need to have folks talk to them," said Col. Steven Pennington, commander of the Air Force Operations Group. "I don't think any of us thought there would be this amount of demand."

The first Air Force interrogation teams were deployed to Afghanistan this year. Most belonged to the Air Force's internal investigative service, had experience questioning suspects and didn't require additional training. But subsequent Air Force interrogation teams, drawn from an array of unrelated jobs, are undergoing 16-week interrogation courses at the Army's intelligence academy at Ft. Huachuca, Ariz.

"They are not necessarily operating too far outside their basic skill set, but they are operating in an environment they're not normally trained to operate in," said Maj. Brenda Campbell, an Air Force spokeswoman.

The first class of 50 Air Force students arrived at Ft. Huachuca during the summer, and are scheduled to complete the course this month.

During one recent class, an Army instructor was giving his Air Force pupils an overview of interrogation "approaches" designed to get prisoners to talk. He spent the better part of an hour describing such psychological ploys as "fear up" and "pride and ego down," which are designed to prey on prisoners' anxieties and feelings of inadequacy.

But many students were still struggling with more elementary aspects of the job, such as how to manage the physical space of an interrogation booth.

"Do you allow your source to move?" one airman asked.

Only to the extent that their movements reveal something about their mind-set, the instructor replied.

"If he's talking with his hands and he's not being threatening, I would let him do it because the body language is going to tell you some things," the instructor said.

"But if he comes at you or he's smacking the desk or something like that, then yeah, you may want to have him shackled."

Like Air Force personnel, several thousand sailors are performing what the service calls "nontraditional" roles in Iraq, Afghanistan, and at the military prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

The Navy already is operating the prison for terrorism suspects at its base in Guantanamo Bay. Sailors soon will guard detainees at Ft. Suse in Iraq, near the northern city of Sulaymaniya — another move to free up more Army personnel for counterinsurgency missions.

By summer, the Navy expects to have retrained 3,000 to 4,000 sailors as prison guards, cargo handlers and for other jobs that have traditionally fallen to the Army.

Recently, 500 sailors were trained by the Department of Agriculture to become customs inspectors in Iraq and Kuwait — sifting through military cargo and personal gear that troops send back to the United States.

"It didn't take a lot of training, but it freed up about 500 people for the Army," said Capt. Kathy Isgrig, the Navy official in charge of the retraining and redeployment of Navy personnel into the new jobs.

As shortages in Army specialties arise, Pentagon planners gather for "sourcing" conferences to determine which military branch can take up the slack.

"Every time we go through this sourcing drill, we compare notes," said Pennington of the Air Force. "If my friends in the Army say they are running out [of troops to fill certain slots], all of us around the table figure out if we can ante up."

Air Force personnel are already beginning to spend more time in combat zones. Air Force officials said that although 85% to 90% still deploy on standard four-month tours, a growing number of Air Force personnel are spending six months or a year in Iraq and Afghanistan — usually because they are part of a joint headquarters group.

Army officials said they expect to have an Air Force class in interrogation training at Ft. Huachuca almost year-round. Most graduates will be assigned to higher-level prison facilities such as Abu Ghraib and Camp Bucca in Iraq, said Thomas Gandy, director of human intelligence for the Army.

At the Pentagon, Army officials said that their Air Force counterparts have groused about some aspects of the training at Ft. Huachuca. The bulk of the airmen have years more military experience than the Army students — most of whom just finished basic training — and some have complained that they are forced to take part in lengthy marches and other physical training that has little to do with interrogating prisoners.

"There's some friction," said an Army official who oversees the interrogation training and asked not to be identified. "But every soldier's got to be survivable. Every soldier and convoy has got to know what to do."



Post Edited (Oct 11, 1:49pm)
 
#3 ·
I've seen this first hand since my squadron just had a group of vehicle operators return from Iraq. Out of 12 people, they got 1 purple heart and 5 Army Commendation Medals. They said it was no joke. Constant attacks. It's funny because a lot of people in the AF don't ever expect to get shot at, even though we are all required to be M-16 qualified(enlisted). Yeah, we are the spoiled ones out of all the services. That's why we require the highest test scores to get in. 2 more months and I'll be over there to do my part.
 
#4 ·
I've been there and back many times and I thank god I'm a flyer and not eligible for the ground stuff. It's dissapointing to me that the military has been continually downsized, even though we don't have enough people to perform adequately anywhere. I was at Ramstein AB and we had to cancel a resupply mission because there wasn't enough maintenance crews to keep 3 airplanes running. There was one crew cheif working his ass off with no help, and he told us the Air Force was forcing him out after his enlistment was up. Now it looks like things are going to be getting tighter with the Army soaking up some more of our guys.
 
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#5 ·
I mean crap,when I went in 1986 they let us shoot an M16 ONE LOUSY ASS DAY!!! I never touched another weapon in my remaining 4 years!!

I can imagine putting a poor guy in there who has a couple weeks training and then expects the guy to be able to shoot a fast moving target while he himself is a fast moving target!!

Bush has got us in one bug azz mess over there!!

Sorry you have to go Moneypit I hope your combat training is a **** of a lot better than what little I received!! I hope and pray you come back unharmed dude!!



Post Edited (Oct 11, 2:29pm)
 
#6 ·
Good thing is is only ~13,000 barefooted insurgents and not armies from China or Russia LOL

10:1 man advantage plus superior technology (including satellite imaging) and they still can't "get the job done"... anyone asking the hard questions? Or do they not want to get the job done (and that is in fact the job... a decoy to cause chaos while the oil flows)

The "first job" was to stop "foreign terrorists" from getting "Iraq's WMD's"... but there were no Iraqi terrorists at that time and it was eventully discovered that there were no WMDs (as Blix and anyone with a brain said all along)... now there are "terrorists"... how did that happen?



btw did they ever get Bin Laden?
 
#7 ·
Bush is a moron. That much has been obvious from day one. The moment he started on about Iraq after 9/11, I thought, no WAY is this gonna fly. But the "liberal" news media offered little in the way of counterpoint (hoo-WHEE! War = BIG RATINGS!) The populace continued to demonstrate its complete lack of ability to analyze what the heck was going on. And of course congress were (and are) a bunch of spineless worms, all to eager to hand over THEIR constitutional responsibilities to a Pres who was obviously off his nut.

GROAN.

Welcome to the endarkenment!
 
#8 ·
USAF - PJ - '69-'71 participant southeast asia games (losing side). At least we were trained for combat and knew that people would be trying to kill us. Those poor bastards........too few troops, not well thought out, economy going south, and cronies running things. Good thing Kerry or Gore didn't get elected 'cause then the country would be in real trouble.
 
#9 ·
Actually, the UN and Congress APPROVED it. Congress is continuing to FUND it. Can't blame Bush when everyone else agreed to it (though some seem to forget the past 13 years over there).
 
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#10 ·
Dammit Hybrid, you beat me to it!

Fellas, Bush has 565 members of Congress that also help him make laws and make laws of their own. 100 members of the Senate and 465 members of the House of Representatives. Each state has two reps from the Senate (thus 50x2=100). The amount of reps from the house from each state is contingent upon the population of that state.

"Bush is a moron." Dan, that may very well be true but I'm sure the electoral college was well aware of that when they elected him, so they either had some scheme going or they are morons as well.

"I'm sure our airmen are just thrilled at being retrained as Army soldiers."
Maybe so Norm but you know as well as I do (I just passed my 7 year mark in the Marines) that those Airmen are here to defend the country, however the gov't tells them to do so. They volunteered for this. There is no draft. My MOS is a computer network tech, but I'm expected to pick up a rifle and send rounds downrange if called upon. Now, I know we (the branches of the armed forces) are all on the same side, but those airmen (who probably joined just for an easy ride compared to the Army or Marines) just need to stop being whiny little bitches and suck it up. They volunteered for it.
 
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#11 ·
702's SWEATING!

702's will be SWEATING! they are not a "mission critical asset" and will be some of the first to go.

About time those usless lumps of gravy sucking dirt got to do some of the REAL work in the war....

Us 423's, though, we ain't gonna be X-Trained!

We're mission critical!

Muahahahahaha!

Basically, if you left Lackland, and went direct duty, or came out of your "tech school" an AB, start brushin' yer boots, YOU GOING TO DA ARMY MAN!

he he he he!

My retired date was June 2004, and my idiot brother in law is still in thinking that $300 a month on his "retirement" is WORTH it! Well, that tells you something, not the least of which is that he's not very good at math!
 
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#12 ·
"The moment he started on about Iraq after 9/11, I thought, no WAY is this gonna fly."

Most people seem to forget that after 9/11 Bush said that we were going to go after any nation that harbored terrorists. Our Intelligence said that Iraq harbored terrorists and they had WMDs. If Bush ignored our Intelligence and it all turned out to be true then everybody would hate Bush then too. Iraq allowed terrorist training camps on its soil.

I have a friend that is has been to Iraq a couple of times as Special Intelligence. He has seen things things that make him believe the president was right and what he said in the beginning. Just because there are no WMDs found right now does not mean that there never was any. It could have been moved out. If a drug dealer knows the police are coming weeks before they get there they will take the opportunity to hide their stash or get rid of it. According to my friend things have been found in the sand.
 
#15 ·
The word "brainwashed" never wins arguments. One side always thinks that about the other side.
By the way I went to the web site nofear.org. Is that what you call open minded? It seems closed minded and one sided to me.
 
#17 ·
Forces have always joined together. Service is service.
Few planes are flying now so migh as well go on patrol.
THis has zero to do with Car Talk.... Again.
 
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#18 ·
It was January 1969, the place was the US Military Induction Center in New Haven, CT.

Sitting in a large hall with hundreds of recent civilians who had just taken their oaths we were waiting for transport out to our specific military assignments (mine being USAF since my draft number was 8 and I had no issue with those little yellow people). In comes a 6' 5'' 250lb ramrod Marine gunny and shouts out instructions for the first 50 people to count off starting with the row 2 in front of me. After a bit of confusion and some ass chewing they ended at fifty 2 people before me. The gunny ordered the fifty to stand up. More confusion and words being said. Okay, the gunny says, you fifty are now Marines! Now the fit hits the shan and chaos reigns for a few minutes ( "I signed up for the Coast Guard" or "My recruiter said I didn't have to do anything I didn't want to? etc.) before more Marines showed up and hussled those 50 poor guys out of the hall.

To this day I've always wondered how many of them made it through their tours (Tet had taken place only 3 months before and the Marines needed bodies). For me an opportunity to jump (read fall) out of airplanes and copters and shoot people made me change my very young mind and I ended up in the what the Marines called "The land of many bad things".

When you take your oath it says nothing about the Marines, Army, USAF, Navy, etc. it says the US military and upholding/protecting the constitution.

Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines went the old TV ad I believe........
 
#20 ·
"Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines went the old TV ad I believe........"

EXACTLY!! 4 Separate branches!

It's not supposed to be the ArvyMaForAircemyines!!

People have different mind sets and physical characteristics that qualify them for different branches. An big azz inately violent person will love killing people in the Army and Marines but probably wouldn;t have mind set for technical ****.!! A mild person will like fixing airplanes but not killing people!!

Both are necessary and need to be in the right place at the right time or someone is gonna die or some plane is gonna crash.

They might as well bring the draft back because that is exactly what is happening to the guys that are already in there!


Later,Orm
 
#21 ·
At least you had SOME kind of training.... When I went through Assault Boat Coxswain School, we received no combat training, we weren't even shown an M-16, although it was our job to land Marines on hostile beaches while under fire. One guys asks, "what do we do if we can't get our boat off the beach?" The instructor tells us to grab an M-16 from the first dead Marine we see, and do what the rest of the Marines are doing, try to hitch a ride back out. Life expectancy, 7 seconds from the surf zone, after that, you are just lucky. Then you get to make another run. We didn't even have M-16's on that tub LST, we were still using M-14's, and we weren't even trained on them!!

Our firearms training consisted of firing five .22 rounds, out of a modified M1911A1. We weren't even required to hit the target let alone accumulate a score.
 
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#22 ·
Absotively...

"When you take your oath it says nothing about the Marines, Army, USAF, Navy, etc. it says the US military and upholding/protecting the constitution."

Being amongst one of the verrrry few who actually read their enlistment contract (so yes, I have been 'this way' for a verrry long time!) I can say that what was posted above is absolutely, positively, 100% correct.
There are escape clauses for Uncle Sugar in every portion of the contract dealing with "Guaranteed Job" or "Guaranteed Base of Assignment" or even enlistment length...

Once you sign on the line, your a$$ is THEIRS and anyone who is too stupid to understand that deserves what is coming to them!

Nobody put a gun to anyone's head to sign up, and if they thought they were going to get an easy ride through their hitch because it's been that way forever, let them take a lesson from my time in the service:

"Well, it may have been done that way in the past, but it's stopping here, NOW, and with YOU, Airman!"

While it sucked, I didn't complain whine or cry about it, because I READ the contract, and NEW my a$$ was theirs till my enlistment was up.

So till such time as that contract expires, no sense whining about it, you got a job to do, you signed on the line, get to it!
 
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#23 ·
What you are missing Norm...

is the line in there about "core competencies"...

The guys in C.E., the guys who were 702's, grounds keepers, the guys who scored 25 across the boards on the ASVAB and still got in because the USAF needed Carpenters that day at the MEPPS Station...


THOSE are the guys getting reassigned. Flightline people are mission critical, they are the "core competencies" they are talking about.
The reason most of the USAF ground maintenance is performed by civilians stateside is because the 43X people are overseas generating aircraft.

It's the Bus Drivers, Civil Engineers, GP Mechanics, Cooks that got a job in the USAF that are getting redeployed because the USAF realizes that they really don't need those people to do what it does!

They can eat at an Army Chow Hall, they can be driven around by Civilian Bus Drivers, and contract workers can mow the lawns. There is not a single reason those job skills are required in the USAF. It hurts people in the USAF to hear that possibly, but there ARE people who just are lucky the USAF let them in! They usually got the position of Dorm Chief in Basic Training (my Dorm Chief, Eugene Griffin, had 25, 25, 10, 15 on his ASVAB scores---hey I was house mouse, I had access....) They do this so people with intelligence get used to taking orders from complete idiots!

Eugene as lucky he got into the USAF, compared to the number of guys like me with 98+ on all catagories you wonder exactly what the USAF could use them for... Now you know, they really didn't need them they were nice to have around for social promotion, P.C. reasons of having a good ethnic mix overall for the Quota Counters in the Civilian World and in Congress (remember the LBJ Program where guys like Forrest Gump were allowed to enlist---not the brightest and not really functional on the outside, but hand em a gun and say "go kill this" and they can do that pretty darned well, and if they die.... oh well, hopefully they only reproduced overseas and contributed to the downfall of a foreign culture with their dull-witted genes!) But now, the USAFG says "Hey, if we gotta help because people don't want to join up, we use this section of the contract, and send em your way!"

Remember your enlistment contract Norm?

Rember the phrase "or for the convienience of the US Government"

Want a tanslation of that? Means if Uncle Sugar needs grunts, he's gonna take em from where he needs em, and gawd help ya if you got a 702 on your AFSC, or something that took no training in Tech School...caus they are a-movin' to the Infantry!

That is an extreme case---they aren't doing that yet, but they CAN, it's in the contract!

"For the Convienience of the US Government..."
 
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#24 ·
Yeah I know what you are saying Tony BUT when they ACTUALLY EXERCISE those powers people say "OH **** F(*& THAT I AIN'T JOINING UP" and then sure enough our all volunterr force is down the crapper and out comes the draft!!

Personally I think WE NEED THE DRAFT BACK WITH NO DEFERMENTS FOR COLLEGE THIS TIME AROUND!!

Those ass wipes in Congress would think twice about going to war the next time unless it is REALLY NECESSARY!!!

BTW my best friend from High School ships out to Iraq this week. He signed up for the Naval Reserve after 9/11 but he got moved into a NAVY SEAL COMBAT SUPPORT TEAM earlier this year!! Yeah his azz is gonna see some bad shiat!!!


Later,Norm



Post Edited (Oct 11, 7:01pm)
 
#25 ·
Did TonyD actually write a post that said I was right about something? And are Norm and I on the very same side on this topic (and on the ninrod prez we have)? What's the line by Bill Murray in GB's about "cats and dogs..."??

And now the military wants permission to recruit kids without even a high school education. I guess they must be the only ones not smart enough to know better....
 
#26 ·
Civilian life lessons:

Management can do what ever it wants to.

People (read management) make decisions they don't have to live with.

"You people (line employees/grunts/whatever) think management knows what it is doing." Victor N. LaBrousse - former boss.

Military Industrial Complex - read above.

Government - read above.

We all are preaching to the chior and we are singing a sad sad song.

My prayers to all those at the sharp end. God or whatever protects you, be with you. Good luck. Come home in one piece.
 
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