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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I was told that the job books for 8 hours X $45.00
an hour. He said you can buy a used one but could not be sure that it would last like a brand new one, leaving me in the same boat as before. what ever he found at the junk yard would be at least 15 years old. Do i really want to invest that much in labor,parts to have it crack in a year or two?
 

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> I was told that the job books for 8 hours X
> $45.00
> an hour. He said you can buy a used one but
> could not be sure that it would last like a
> brand new one, leaving me in the same boat
> as before. what ever he found at the junk
> yard would be at least 15 years old. Do i
> really want to invest that much in
> labor,parts to have it crack in a year or
> two?

Just so you know Lisa. It does not enen take me that long with a Turbo 81. I have twice the stuff to remove and less space to do it in. With a normally aspirated motor in a 280zx and no turbo it is like having a whole new patio built on to the back of your house. 8 hours is ridiculous. Sorry.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
i don't understand what everyone is complaining about. no reputable mechanic would ever sell a used part to a customer unless they demanded it. it's not worth being liable for and it's a disservice to the customer in the long run. $45 an hour is a **** good shop rate and 8 hours seems fair to me. especially if that includes drilling out broken exhaust bolts. those take time. it's just a lot of work. i think most people on this board are accustomed to working on their own cars and don't realize what it costs to have a mechanic fix it for them. i know i would never pay someone else to touch my car. you also have to understand that shops make money off the parts they sell . i worked at a tranny shop where the markup was anywhere from 100% to 1000%, depending on the situation. you may be able to find a part cheaper than your mechanic will charge for it, but so what. most people would rather pay a little extra money than have to chase down the part themselves and still not know if what they bought is good quality or will work right.

oh by the way, an exhaust leak causes a pressure imbalance in the intake manifold, meaning the air volume will change from cylinder to cylinder. this makes the effected cylinders run a little lean, meaning less power.

-casper
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Casper

> i don't understand what everyone is
> complaining about. no reputable mechanic
> would ever sell a used part to a customer
> unless they demanded it. it's not worth
> being liable for and it's a disservice to
> the customer in the long run. $45 an hour is
> a **** good shop rate and 8 hours seems fair
> to me. especially if that includes drilling
> out broken exhaust bolts. those take time.
> it's just a lot of work. i think most people
> on this board are accustomed to working on
> their own cars and don't realize what it
> costs to have a mechanic fix it for them. i
> know i would never pay someone else to touch
> my car. you also have to understand that
> shops make money off the parts they sell . i
> worked at a tranny shop where the markup was
> anywhere from 100% to 1000%, depending on
> the situation. you may be able to find a
> part cheaper than your mechanic will charge
> for it, but so what. most people would
> rather pay a little extra money than have to
> chase down the part themselves and still not
> know if what they bought is good quality or
> will work right.

> oh by the way, an exhaust leak causes a
> pressure imbalance in the intake manifold,
> meaning the air volume will change from
> cylinder to cylinder. this makes the
> effected cylinders run a little lean,
> meaning less power.

> -casper
Thank You casper. You made me feel a bit better.
he did say somthing about broken exhaust bolts. The car really does run a whole lot better. It cost me alot but it seems worth it.

lisa
 

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> i don't understand what everyone is
> complaining about. no reputable mechanic
> would ever sell a used part to a customer
> unless they demanded it. it's not worth
> being liable for and it's a disservice to
> the customer in the long run. $45 an hour is
> a **** good shop rate and 8 hours seems fair
> to me. especially if that includes drilling
> out broken exhaust bolts. those take time.
> it's just a lot of work. i think most people
> on this board are accustomed to working on
> their own cars and don't realize what it
> costs to have a mechanic fix it for them. i
> know i would never pay someone else to touch
> my car. you also have to understand that
> shops make money off the parts they sell . i
> worked at a tranny shop where the markup was
> anywhere from 100% to 1000%, depending on
> the situation. you may be able to find a
> part cheaper than your mechanic will charge
> for it, but so what. most people would
> rather pay a little extra money than have to
> chase down the part themselves and still not
> know if what they bought is good quality or
> will work right.

> oh by the way, an exhaust leak causes a
> pressure imbalance in the intake manifold,
> meaning the air volume will change from
> cylinder to cylinder. this makes the
> effected cylinders run a little lean,
> meaning less power.

> -casper
True enough, I guess my do-it-yourselfer attitude does tend to bias my thinking when it comes to repairs (though I'll pay any amount rather than chase down electrical stuff) But I don't I've ever heard of an exhaust manifold cracking on a Z warping yes, but never cracking, Perhaps it would be wise for lisa to investigate the underlying cause of this all. I know how bad the markup is too so to me that's even more incentive to do my own work and buy my own parts (provided they're not from a c/s/k store, autozone or pep boys) as for the labor, I can yank my whole head removing all the components first in 2 hours (got started late) but you're right drilling out studs is time consuming (though vise grips usually do the trick thankfully) Anyways, I'll quit babbling now. So ~8 hours total is probably about right. And sadly enough, though the amount seems high, I spent 600 bucks getting my head redone with hardened seats etc last summer so I know how that crap goes (don't even want to think how much the whole rebuild cost me)
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
i've never seen a z manifold crack either. but a lot of times a manifold can warp enough were it is beyond repair. the problem is if there is a bad twist in it, the machine shop has no point of reference. they may machine it wrong. i know it sounds impossible on something as simple as an exhaust manifold but it happens all the time. the manifold will mount just fine except when you try and hookup the exhaust. the machine shop has changed all the angles that the manifold mounts at and you can't get the exhaust downpipe to line up or hold a gasket. to make things worse the exhaust system squeaks because it rubs on something. her manifold may not have been cracked but could have been warped enough that the mechanic didn't want to take a chance with it. you never can say with a shop, maybe the mechanic said warped and the service manager said cracked. sometimes service managers use a little drama to get their point across. who knows. her car is running well and that's what counts.

-casper
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
> i've never seen a z manifold crack either.
> but a lot of times a manifold can warp
> enough were it is beyond repair. the problem
> is if there is a bad twist in it, the
> machine shop has no point of reference. they
> may machine it wrong. i know it sounds
> impossible on something as simple as an
> exhaust manifold but it happens all the
> time. the manifold will mount just fine
> except when you try and hookup the exhaust.
> the machine shop has changed all the angles
> that the manifold mounts at and you can't
> get the exhaust downpipe to line up or hold
> a gasket. to make things worse the exhaust
> system squeaks because it rubs on something.
> her manifold may not have been cracked but
> could have been warped enough that the
> mechanic didn't want to take a chance with
> it. you never can say with a shop, maybe the
> mechanic said warped and the service manager
> said cracked. sometimes service managers use
> a little drama to get their point across.
> who knows. her car is running well and
> that's what counts.

> -casper

Gosh, I don't know what all this drama is about. I certainly didn't imply that she had been cheated. There is a distinct difference between the way dealerships do business and the way a Z car specialist would handle the same thing. The service manager quotes the customer a labor estimate in worst possible scenario terms. In this case 8 hours would be about right if everything went wrong like broken studs etc. My suggestion to go to the Z specialist next time is based on the fact that the Z specialist will charge for the time he spends doing the job. Now simple math will tell you that if the dealer charges $45.00 for 8 hours and only spends 4 doing the job (but still charges for 8) and the Z specialist charges $55.00 and hour and does the same job in that same 4 hours, well 360 - 220 is $140.00 less.
Now as to the used part. Warping exhaust manifolds were/are a regional problem mostly. In California were I live they commonly warp at the #6 cylinder due to extreme under hood temperatures. Unheard of in Minnesota were I am from. I have a Z that is very close to new condition. It was built with used parts. It would have cost an incredible amount to use new for everything. The service managers argument that any used part he got would be at least 15 years old and likely to warp is ludicrous. If it hadn't warped in 15 years what would suddenly now possess it to warp? That is not simply my opinion, I work for NASA and the engineers have been laughing about that one all day. Lisa, I don't know where you live but if you live near a Z specialist try them out next time. I have used several and they have become like friends. I would trust them with my child. There are X number of Nissan dealers in the USA. There are alot less Z specialists. If you have a bad experience with the dealership you can write a letter to anyone you want and you are unlikely to ever hear anything back. Complain about a Z specialist and you will tear his or her heart out. They survive off of doing a service for a car they feel a passion for.
 

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> Gosh, I don't know what all this drama is
> about. I certainly didn't imply that she had
> been cheated. There is a distinct difference
> between the way dealerships do business and
> the way a Z car specialist would handle the
> same thing. The service manager quotes the
> customer a labor estimate in worst
> possible scenario terms. In this case
> 8 hours would be about right if everything
> went wrong like broken studs etc. My
> suggestion to go to the Z specialist next
> time is based on the fact that the Z
> specialist will charge for the time he
> spends doing the job. Now simple math will
> tell you that if the dealer charges $45.00
> for 8 hours and only spends 4 doing the job
> (but still charges for 8) and the Z
> specialist charges $55.00 and hour and does
> the same job in that same 4 hours, well 360
> - 220 is $140.00 less.
> Now as to the used part. Warping exhaust
> manifolds were/are a regional problem
> mostly. In California were I live they
> commonly warp at the #6 cylinder due to
> extreme under hood temperatures. Unheard of
> in Minnesota were I am from. I have a Z that
> is very close to new condition. It was built
> with used parts. It would have cost an
> incredible amount to use new for everything.
> The service managers argument that any used
> part he got would be at least 15 years old
> and likely to warp is ludicrous. If it
> hadn't warped in 15 years what would
> suddenly now possess it to warp? That is not
> simply my opinion, I work for NASA and the
> engineers have been laughing about that one
> all day. Lisa, I don't know where you live
> but if you live near a Z specialist try them
> out next time. I have used several and they
> have become like friends. I would trust them
> with my child. There are X number of Nissan
> dealers in the USA. There are alot less Z
> specialists. If you have a bad experience
> with the dealership you can write a letter
> to anyone you want and you are unlikely to
> ever hear anything back. Complain about a Z
> specialist and you will tear his or her
> heart out. They survive off of doing a
> service for a car they feel a passion for.

Well they definitely are prone to warping in Phoenix, I think it was a case of sticker shock of sorts. I'd be put off if I had to throw 800 bucks onto either of my cars (thankfully the mustang is under warranty as I just got out of 11 labor hours @ 68 bucks an hour plus 300 in parts for the tranny taking a crap) (Please hold all mustang related laughter, it's my wife's car from before we were married) and other than warranty I'd never ever take any vehicle to the dealer. They're too busy looking at the dollar signs in their eyes to do a good job on anything.
 

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> Well they definitely are prone to warping in
> Phoenix, I think it was a case of sticker
> shock of sorts. I'd be put off if I had to
> throw 800 bucks onto either of my cars
> (thankfully the mustang is under warranty as
> I just got out of 11 labor hours @ 68 bucks
> an hour plus 300 in parts for the tranny
> taking a crap) (Please hold all mustang
> related laughter, it's my wife's car from
> before we were married) and other than
> warranty I'd never ever take any vehicle to
> the dealer. They're too busy looking at the
> dollar signs in their eyes to do a good job
> on anything.

I live in Winnipeg where it's cold more often than warm and I've had my exhaust manifold machined once when the #6 bolt broke off about 3 yrs ago, now I've got to replace the manifold because the lobe around the #6 bolt is partly broken. Is the head warped or why does this keep happening. This is the third time this has happened to me.
Bernard 83zxt
 

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Personally on my 83 after the manifold leaked for months I went to buy a used manifold and it as $75. I did not buy it because it was cracked on the back side. Instead, I found a header, decent quality and performance pacesetter for $125 at the local super shop. As for the broken stud AND broken tap in the last stud, I pulled the intake and exhaust manifolds off (get a couple extensions and a U-joint for your racket). I then used a cold chisel and punch and pounded pieces of the tap out. After that, I used a micro digrinder, kinda like a dremel with a flex shaft, bt pneumatic, and ground the rest of the tap and stud out. I replaced it with a 3/8 american stud (forgive me) and opened up the header boss to fit. I retaped the head after drilling it out, put it all back together, done. I had only worked on cars for a couple months before on my own, had few tools and the such, and it took about 3.5 hours total. Had it not been for the broken tap, it would have been MUCH easier. I do not know why you take the head off, other than that is what the service manual says. A lady I know had the dealer do it for her, they drained the oil, removed the head and fixed the stud, put it back together and NEVER put oil OR water in it, a Nissan dealer indeed. She drove a VERY overheating 82 for days until she told me and I put oil and water in it. Total cost for her was $400. I do not trust dealers or many mechanics for that matter, I do all my own work, doesn't matter how hard, I will figure it out myself.
Joshua L.
Mechanics is not for everyone.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
> I live in Winnipeg where it's cold more
> often than warm and I've had my exhaust
> manifold machined once when the #6 bolt
> broke off about 3 yrs ago, now I've got to
> replace the manifold because the lobe around
> the #6 bolt is partly broken. Is the head
> warped or why does this keep happening. This
> is the third time this has happened to me.
> Bernard 83zxt
I've seen these, and many other exhaust manifolds get very hot, independent of the outside temperature. With a plugged cat, or exhaust system, or mixture wrong they can get cherry red
hot.
Another point I wanted to make is: if your manifold gasket is blown, take a look at your headgasket, as this is an excellent time to do both at the same time. Pulling the head also makes for quick removal of broken studs, even if you run the head to a machine shop. It's a lot easier to get them out on a bench, than with an angle drill in the vehicle.
Pulling the head may even save time, as the removal, and replacement of the intake and exhaust manifolds is twice as quick out of the car. And it certainly wouldn't hurt to have a new headgasket on that age of Z.
R and R of the head, and both manifolds can easily be done within the 8 hours that was allowed
to do the manifold. Good luck on these, Joe
 
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