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Normally I'd argue with Leon, but....

LeonV Wrote:
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> Norm, I can't see why you can't just listen and
> accept the facts rather than trying to hold on
> dearly to your idealistic view that the American
> auto industry cannot be toppled. Listen to Tony,
> he makes a very strong argument for why this is.
> Really, just pick up a copy of Consumer Reports
> and summarize to us what you see in the auto
> section.



When he says stuff like that, it's hard to argue. I don't know why Norm has such a hard-on for not seeing basic truisims. Most of my family in-laws back in Michigan are all in the Automotive Business, and work for the Big Three companies. It's endemic in the Union System, as well as in the management.

What O'Bama should have done was have Gettlefinger fired as well as the head of GM....but that wouldn't suit his campaign contributors all that well.

The UAW and it's system of extortion is as culpable in the downfall of the US Automakers as the incompetent management.

AS I HAVE SAID BEFORE, FOR MORE THAN 15 YEARS ON THIS BOARD: THE US AUTO INDUSTRY IS HEADING FOR THE SAME CRASH AS THE US STEEL-MAKING INDUSTRY DID IN THE 1980'S.

If you are a student of history, research what happened to Big Steel in the USA, and watch the startling parallells between what happened there, and what happened with the "Big Three" automakers.

And come to think of it, I'm flying to Pittsburgh on Sunday. Omigod! Pittsburgh! Well, it's still there. It's THRIVING. There WAS life after USX and Bethlehem closed up operations.

Norm is crying the same reactionary screams the xenophobes shouted in the 80's over the collapse of USX and Bethlehem. They went bankrupt. They reorganized. They got RIGHT SIZED and they MOVED ON! Sure, we don't have as many steel making jobs in the USA as we once did. But those that REMAINED are FAR MORE SUSTAINABLE.

The same thing NEEDS to happen to the Auto Industry. All the government is doing now is prolonging the agony over WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE.
 

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Opel, huh?

norm(The 12 sec Dual SU Dude) Wrote:
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> BTW years ago I had an 86 Supra that I lusted
> after for years before finally getting one with
> 45,000 miles and it turned out to be a piece of
> Shite!! Poured oil out the back of the head gasket
> NOT the valve cover. The clutch had to be replaced
> 55,000 miles and even the new Toyota Clutch was
> horrible as it was an on or off switch. The brakes
> vibrated ,it handled like shite and the water pump
> and alternator went out at 50,000 miles,the radio
> messed up...need I go on.
>
> I had an 86 VW Golf that was an even bigger pile
> of crap than the Supra and a Volvo 242 that was
> still an EVEN BIGGER pile of crap than the VW.
>
> Owned a 74 Opel Manta in High School that was a
> PILE of Crap as well
>
> So , please forgive me for not bowing at the
> altar of all things import!

And of course, these were all NEW vehicles like I'm referring to, right Norm? Or were you inheriting other people's issues? And BTW, an Opel is a GM PRODUCT!!!!!!!!

I don't bow to any altar, Norm, I logically use statstics to support my decisions. Statistically, any Big Three car is more likely to have longevity issues and quality issues that will impact me more than 'an import'.

That's a FACT.

Because you own THE ONE T-BIRD that didn't have an engine fire doesn't mean that 85% of the other ones burned to the ground on some deserted highway leaving their occupants stranded.
 

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"Living in the Past"

It's funny to see you post that Norm!
This is EXACTLY what got GM and the Big 3 where they are now: Financially bankrupt, making mediochre vehicles that may be somewhat passing in quality, but with the reputation of being SHITE!

For DECADES they ALL banked on a captive market: "Once a GM Man, ALWAYS a GM Family" was the dogma. Even into the 80's.

The DID NOT CARE ABOUT QUALITY because for their entire lives, it had always been that way. There is a point where people say 'enough is enough'---people who are TOLERANT, people who are FORGIVING. People put up with a LOT OF SHITE...but like ZXTOY mentions, there comes a point when you just step back and question loyalty to a marque which has ABANDONED YOU!

THIS is where GM and the Big Three started Hemmoraging Market Share to Toyota and the Imports. It wasn't some unemployment catastrophe caused by the giant sucking sound of jobs going overseas. It was of employed people finally getting FED UP enough to CHANGE a brand loyalty that had likely been in their family for GENERATIONS up to that point!

What kind of company lets it come to that? The Japanese companies fought HARD to build brand loyalty, and to actively cultivate it.

The Big Three are run by lawyers, the legal department, and MBA's. Any one of those three will form a committee before HELPING you out of a situation.

The Japanese Companies have engineers charting their courses, and an Engineer will SOLVE your problem first, and find out why so it doesn't happen again. Japanese quality can't get much better because it's so high to begin with...diminishing returns.

Like I said, in the end it will come down to SERVICE AFTER THE SALE.

And the Culture at US Auto Distributors is NOT ready for this kind of responsibility. They may make something passable in quality, but WHEN it breaks, you will get SCREWED by the dealership, and by their service department.

I have seen Chevrolet Dealers CHARGING PEOPLE FOR WARRANTY REPAIRS! The people didn't know any better, and so they paid the bill. And then the Dealership submitted a WARRANTY CLAIM TO GM TO COVER IT'S COSTS! Talk about unscrupulous!

Where the quality in manufacturing has marginally improved, the after sale service is still as dismal as ever! And I don't see that changing any time soon, either!
 

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Ever heard of statistics??

"Because LeonV my experences with both owning a Ford Tbird for 15 years and currently 2 Grand Prixs, one for 8 years and the other for 4 years have been ENTIRELY different than what others have claimed to experience"

In the world of statistics that is called an OUTLIER. Look at CR and you will see real statistical data trends instead of random anecdotal evidence which does nothing for your argument. Let the losers lose. After all, it's what they deserve for being bad at what they do for so long.
 

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Outlier

I tried explaining that to someone here once before, Leon...

They don't do statistics here, it's all raw xenophobic emotion and anecdotal evidence. "Because mine is good, they are all good...but you are wrong because you had a bad experience and are making blanket statements."

At least that is how I sum up Norm's past few posts.

Consumer's Reports doesn't have any vested interest other than telling their subscribers what to expect from what they buy, and what to steer clear of when buying this product or that. Frankly I disagree with their assessment of many vehicles from a SUBJECTIVE standpoint, but TOTALLY defer to them on the STATISTICAL ASSESSMENT when it comes to reliability, etc...

By subjective assessments, when their engineers say things like a new corvette has 'a somewhat jouncy ride and very stiff suspension' it's like "DUUUUH! That is what a Corvette is SUPPOSED to have!" They make very pedestrian (literally!) observations on vehicles from a non-car-guy point of view, that as an enthusiast I simply won't agree with.

But that is subjective. To each his own, so to speak.

But on the 'predicted reliability' or 'repair incidence' or the various subsystems being rated----they are spot on: Much better than Average, Average, or Much worse than Average. The AVERAGE KEEPS MOVING. They aren't living in the past, they UPDATED their EXPECTATIONS.

Curiously in the 80's a lot of UAW people were cancelling their subscriptions because CR was rating Japanese Cars with those little Red Dots, and most of the Domestic stuff with Black Balls... Now, the little red dots may have moved to white circles, but the Black Balls have only turned to half-moons. Meaning, yeah they improved, but they are still less than average!

When they have no interest, and buy cars like everyone else buys (and not special press cars from the specially maintained fleet!) they tend to have a slightly different take than most of the auto magazines.

But then again, Empirical Data and Statistics have never been welcome here in any discussion at ZC.C!
 
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Discussion Starter #47
Re: OH WHAT A FEELING!!!Reports of aggressively rusting Toyota p

Uh once a GM man always a GM man......welllllllll that actually holds true sometimes.

Both my uncles owned GM's for about 30 years and then when GM built **** in the 80's and early 90's they switched to Subaru and Toyota...welll low and behold they are in their 70's now and have returned to the fold.

One bought a used Vette and a New 09 Silverado and the other switched back to GM about 5 years ago and just bought another new Impala last year because he had such good luck with the first one... sort of the same reason I now own 2 Grand Prixs.


Oh and the Manta was built in Germany not the USA so although the parent company was GM the car was just Eurotrash.
 

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Re: OH WHAT A FEELING!!!Reports of aggressively rusting Toyota p

I had a 74 Manta as well, loved it and not a thing went wrong for years.
It is simply hit or miss, but statistics simply don't lie.
Japanese cars simply feel better constructed. Less rattles, tight sound from the door seals, same smooth sound EVERY time you turn the key. Smooth clutches and transmissions, etc. Just because and American heap continues to move you around, doesn't mean it's a good quality car.
I have 2 Japanese cars (Acura and 93Z)and a 95 Silverado. The truck is fine, utilitarian and for the most part reliable with 190K on it. It still works fine, but has it held together on it's own, no. I maintain it constantly, the Japanese cars, oil and fuel only.
 

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Re: Buick and China, go figure

For some inexplicably strange reason, Buick has a HUGE fan base in China. Nobody I know can explain it. It is like Jerry Lewis in France. Surreal. A Mercedes and a Buick roll up next to each other. If you are in the Buick, all the women want to be with you, and the men want to kill you for taking thier women, then check out your Buick.

I have had 3 Camaros, a Malibu, a Baretta, a Grand Prix, a Chevy truck and a Chevy full size Blazer. My then girlfriend had a buick. I still have the Blazer, but everything else went out of commission on mechanical issues. I.n fairness, I had the camaros when I was young and had a "lets see what this puppy can do!" attitude, without the money or skills to maintain them, but all the rest should have lasted more than a year each

The first time I sat my seat into a Honda, and found I could drive it virtually maintenence-free, and get better gas mileage - I wondered what the **** I'd been doing with all that other GM crap. Cummulatively, I've gotten something like 400K miles on my Hondas over the last 8-10 years.
 

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Re: OH WHAT A FEELING!!!Reports of aggressively rusting Toyota p

You realized Norm that your proving everyone else's point.

The cars that work for you were bought new, the cars that didn't were bought used. Anyone can tell you a car will only last as well as it's maintained. You had well taken car of domestics that your comparing to possible used and abused imports. Your creating a self fulfilling prophecy.

Your pointing out a one month decline in sales, this tells you zip. If anything you know that the domestics really can't fall much farther while the imports have plenty of room to fall. And as I recall no import is having the problems that GM or Chrysler are having.

Anecdotal evidence, like the kind your using, is utterly useless. You have to look at the big picture. While I have arguments with CRs methodology you can't ignore the fact that most publications put domestic quality at the same place import quality was 20 years ago.

The fact that all the German cars had problems people wanted fixed means that people expect them to work properly the first time. I have never seen a manufacturer that makes cars that work 100% of the time out the door, the difference is in how the problem is taken care of and how willing you are to accept unusual behavior. I don't have it handy but there was a study done at one point in time done in how people viewed the reliability of their car. They found that those that owned imports and higher end marques were more likely to complain about a minor problem and expect to have it fixed than those who owned other types of vehicles.

I'm sure you remember this:
"your car would stall 4 times a day and for some reason you accept this as normal"
 
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Discussion Starter #52
Re: OH WHAT A FEELING!!!Reports of aggressively rusting Toyota p

Wow people ASSUME way to much on this forum!!

MeandmyZs:

The 88 Tbird was bought in 1994!

The 99 grand Prix was bought in 2001

The 97 Grand Prix GTP was bought in 2005 it had THREE previous owners.

Oh and regarding your points about German cars if you consider these minor....


VW Turbo engines 1.8T ALL OF THEM sludging up at less than 50,000 miles needing complete rebuilds.

Trannies failing and needing replacement before 60,000 miles

Power Window and Convertible Tops failing

Coil Packs failing.

Fuel Pumps failing

Door locks failing

Oil Leaks

Emmission lights that come on and cost $500 to get to turn off

Airbag lights that come on ALL THE TIME and cost $400 to repair


Mercedes and BMW airbag lights and Emission lights constantly coming on.

A/C Unit failures left and right

Power steering leaks left and right

WAY too many electrical gremlins to go into.

If you actually believe the tripe Consumer reports "reports" than I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. They rate totally NEW models reliability based off of totally OLD and inferior models...yeah real f$cking scientific.


And if you guys think American still aren't buying Domestic cars then here is the breakdown through May 1 of this year. As you will notice GM is still outselling Toyota. Sure theirsales are down more percentage wise year over year but LOOK at the shite they have gone through this year!!

The import sales are WAY off as well and some are faring WORSE than Domestics!!



GM has sold 581,852 sales off –45.0% for the year

Ford has sold 457,172 sales off –41.5% for the year

Chrysler has sold 323,890 sales off –46.2% for the year


Imports

Toyota has sold 486,211 sales off –38.4% for the year

Honda has sold 332,014 sales off –31.9% for the year

Hyundai has sold 224,305 sales off –3.7% for the year

Nissan has sold 221,957 sales off –35.8% for the year

VW has sold 81,606 sales off –17.9% for the year

BMW has sold 70,750 sales off –29.4% for the year

Mercedes has sold 61,141 sales off –27.4% for the year

Mazda has sold 69,934 sales are off -31% for the year

Subaru has sold 57,181 sales are off -1% for the year

Suzuki has sold 17,674 sales are off –51% for the year

Mitsubishi has sold 17,753 sales are off –50.6% for the year
 

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Re: OH WHAT A FEELING!!!Reports of aggressively rusting Toyota p

How are the Yugo's doing?

Norm you need to come out here and work for the local chevrolet dealer (Team Chevrolet) Because of the owner of the ford dealer stealing all the toyota cars here recently, Team Chevrolet has bought the toyota dealership from them. So now Team Chevrolet is "Team Chevrolet Nissan Toyota" . For a GM dealership they seem to be not only surviving but healthy. However the countries economic woes don't hit this area as hard as elsewhere. We don't have economic highs here and therefore don't have as bad economic lows. It still affects us just not as badly. And I personally think that Team sucks because of the staff are idiots so they need some smart guys to balance out their program. When I went into the parts dept. 3 years ago to see what I might be able to order in for my zx they told me that they don't deal with Datsuns. I said you a Nissan dealer right? And they said yes but that has nothing to do with datsuns.They went on to say that nissan and datsun were not related. I ran away.
 

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Re: OH WHAT A FEELING!!!Reports of aggressively rusting Toyota p

norm(The 12 sec Dual SU Dude) Wrote:
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>A 74 Mazda RX-4 in my Senior year
> of High School that was awesome...

Up until last year I had a '74 Rx-4, too, and aside from the brakes needing work, the car ran like it was new - considering it sat for over 20 years before I bought it! I also had a '79 Rx-7 as my first car, and again, aside from the oil pan needing a new gasket, never broke down on me, and soldiered on. Even if anything went on them, usually it was something minor, and on the rare occasion it wasn't, was still easy to fix myself. Same goes for my 280Z. Easy to maintain, and simple to work on. Only problems are finding parts for them, and the bodies rusting out if not maintained accordingly. Other than that, they seem to last forever, mechanically. I think I once read from somewhere that the big 3 (namely GM) purposely made their vehicles to last only a short time so that when they broke, the customers would come back for another. I could be wrong, yet it seems like that was the case, and they just simply weren't thinking straight. the 90's in my opinion saw minor improvement in quality, but I still think they're lacking in something even now. I worked at a transmission shop for a month and the majority of vehicles coming in were Dodge Caravans and Chevy Ventures needing tranny rebuilds.
 

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Reinforcing my point! Thanks Norm! Senility aside, though...

norm(The 12 sec Dual SU Dude) Wrote:
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> Both my uncles owned GM's for about 30 years and
> then when GM built @#$%& in the 80's and early
> 90's they switched to Subaru and Toyota...welll
> low and behold they are in their 70's now and have
> returned to the fold.

THANK YOU FOR REINFORCING MY POINT! I am sorry they suffer from alzheimers, though...

I tend to be far less for giving from a company that f-'d me. They got f-d for 30 years so bad they went somewhere else. Then later in life they decide to give them another try? I hope they carry a shovel and a bucket. They will need it eventually!

Curiously, now, I see you say they were building sh*t into the 90's...

That's less than 10 years ago. 10 Years is not a long time to be making things correctly in comparison to 100 years in business. How did Toyota get it right so quickly???
 

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This IS the general reaction when it happens:

boZton Wrote:
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> The first time I sat my seat into a Honda, and
> found I could drive it virtually maintenence-free,
> and get better gas mileage - I wondered what the
> **** I'd been doing with all that other GM crap.
> Cummulatively, I've gotten something like 400K
> miles on my Hondas over the last 8-10 years.

That is EXACTLY the phenomenon I am talking about. It's the 'sister screwer' reaction mentioned above. I see it in all forms, from people afraid to quit a job they have been at for 10 years, to people driving this car or that.

It's usually illogical fears that drive these kind of feelings. Like Norms. Norm is so afraid that China is going to out manufacture us. Well I got news, short of us lobbing our Nukes there, THAT IS A FOREGONE CONCLUSION! Best move on to fretting about something else worthwhile. The USA was not the 'best', it generally simply was 'the least worst' for most things. This goes for cars for a while as well. Most of Americas industrial might came from the fact that it's factories were untouched in WW2, and could easily pump out mass merchandise for the rest of the world immediately after switching back to consumer goods.

It's not that our stuff was so much better than local offerings (some times it was) but that we COULD make it, make it cheap, and make it quickly. Compared to a place that was leveled to the earth by continaual bombings for the prior 7 or 8 years...

Once they were up an running, the market shrunk. We went domestic.

Then, once their industry developed to a point where they could EXPORT stuff...then the battle began. Sloth and avarice is what has sunk most of the industry in the USA. Not some evil intent of shipping jobs overseas.

Manufacturing has ALWAYS gone to the lowest cost area. Norm REFUSES to admit his precious Textile and Hardwood Furniture Industry in NC and the AMerican SouthEast was crucial to the downfall of the same industry in Europe 100 years ago. His ancestors were the modern-day equivalent of his derided "Chinese"...

Apparently it's GOOD when HIS ancestors do it to some other country.
But when the EXACT SAME THING HAPPENS to him or his neighbors it's some conspiracy.

I call that hipocrasy.
 
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Discussion Starter #58
Re: OH WHAT A FEELING!!!Reports of aggressively rusting Toyota p

It wasn't the Chinese that stole the business it was the enablers in our US governement that allowed companies to move to China and DESTROY American jobs.

China is THE REASON that America can't pay her bills now because half the country is now unemployed or UNDEREMPLOYED.
The underemployed replaced their former $20 an hour factory job with a $10 an hour service job.

You can't maintain a vibrant economy in a very large country with just a service based economy it just ain't gonna happen.
 

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Re: OH WHAT A FEELING!!!Reports of aggressively rusting Toyota p

Norm...?

Why are you so upset towards the government for ALLOWING companies to export jobs? It was the companies who were ready to sell the employees out in the first place that went and asked the government for permission to do so! From a bottom line standpoint, it made sense to pay the cheaper labor, especially if the quality was still good, or good enough for whatever it is they were making?

MoTown: Music or auto industry...The poor African American community of Detroit was selected to be the location for early auto factories for a reason. The downtrodden and poor people who lived there (many of whose parents and grandparents were previously slaves, and got to detroit via the underground railroad, or after the Civil War) were willing to work harder for less pay than someone, say, in NYC. You didn't think they (big 3) WANTED to test out rear wheel drive cars in the icy cold of winter just before and after being robbed, did you?

You are right about one thing, Norm. A large country CANNOT sustain a vibrant economy on service-based businesses only. Manufacturing is also key. American manufacturing COMPANIES and UNIONS have failed us. Question: Why is it the new Hondas (since the 90's, I think) are made in USA by non-unionized AMERICANS, and they are great, and Honda turns a profit, but GM LOSES money on every car? ANSWER: Unions. They have gone too far, and companies like GM gave away the store to them back when the economy was good.

The power company here went on strike last month. They were on strike for ONE DAY! Picture it... What kind of sympathy were they getting as they Biyatched about wanting more pay and better benefits, while a lot of people passing that picket line had neither pay NOR benefits? Around here, they very rarely start a picket in December. It is America's fault when America cannot pay her bills.

I went to a Chevy dealer just before deciding to buy my latest Honda 2 years ago. I found that Chevy quality had improved. Good comparisons between the civic Si and the Cobalt SS. Good comparison between the Accord and the Impala. I wanted to want to get into a Chevy again, but in the end, I had to go with the sure thing. Chevy CAN be the sure thing again IF they MAINTAIN quality over the long term AND vastly improve service, but they will have to keep on doing those two things for a long time before I would ever go back to them.
 
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Discussion Starter #60
Re: OH WHAT A FEELING!!!Reports of aggressively rusting Toyota p

Government's MAIN PUPOSE is to protect it's citizens. When they enable companies to move jobs overseas they are killing our tax base and ruining families and communities as well as enriching COMMUNISTS in China whose long term goal is to overtake and destroy America.

We are in an economic crisis now DIRECTLY due to all the jobs lost to CHina.

Chinese product quality SUCKS and the American companies that moved those jobs overseas are still charging us what they did when Americans produced a better product.
 
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