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needed: security system on 240z

10K views 26 replies 10 participants last post by  75zinNorCal 
#1 ·
I have read a few threads on 240zs getting stolen. This is not good. I would seriously have a heart attack if that were to happen to me. I have read through the archives on kill switch. I am not going to do the work myself, as I want it done right. So I am considering several options and I was wondering what others thought about them. The options I have been able to determine are:

[list type=decimal]
[li]interrupt negative coil wire with toggle switch[/li]
[li]interrupt negative starter wire with toggle switch[/li]
[li]interrupt negative fuel pump wire with toggle switch (install electric fuel pump!)[/li]
[li]interrupt negative coil wire with reed switch[/li]
[li]interrupt negative starter wire with reed switch[/li]
[li]interrupt negative fuel pump wire with reed switch (install electric fuel pump!)[/li]
[li]install Crime Stoppers SP-400 Kit $70 + installation: http://www.amazon.com/Crimestopper-...=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=B001UHAF84 - this includes auto-door locks and remote start. Can a 240z door lock be switched to auto? That would be interesting. How about remote start without choke?[/li]
[li]install Viper 3002 Kit $100 + installation: http://www.amazon.com/Viper-3002/dp/B000NPM136/ref=pd_sim_e_5 - this also includes auto-door locks and I think remote start.[/li]
[/list]

So what would you recommend? I will spend more for a better solution.

Thanks!
 
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#3 ·
One could just pop the hood and take the coil with them.

As far as installing power windows/locks to the S30 it can be done. Look up SPAL power window kits, easy to install and work great. Only problem is you have to cut a hole in the door for the wires. Unless of course you get the power connectors (not sure what they are called).
 
#5 ·
I had posted a schematic for a kill switch. If you have points and not Elec Ign, you can just run a hidden switch to the cold side of the coil, thus not allowing it to start. As with any switch, you must be able to outwit any potential thief. Given time and half a brain, perhaps a thief could figure out you were grounding the coil unless you tapped into the grounding wire up the line. This would be the easiest method. You could also put an interrupt on the solenoid wire but you could still push start it.

Sadly, if someone really wants your car to sell to Saudi Arabia, it's gone and there is not much you can do. You can discourage the locals. and of course you can always take the rotor button with you.
 
#6 ·
#7 ·
skittle said:
One could just pop the hood and take the coil with them.

As far as installing power windows/locks to the S30 it can be done. Look up SPAL power window kits, easy to install and work great. Only problem is you have to cut a hole in the door for the wires. Unless of course you get the power connectors (not sure what they are called).
I was looking at power locks and not power windows. I looked at that SPAL product but I could not tell if it included power locks. It is an interesting convenience idea, but is there security implications? I need to interrupt the engine.
 
#8 ·
palladin said:
I had posted a schematic for a kill switch. If you have points and not Elec Ign, you can just run a hidden switch to the cold side of the coil, thus not allowing it to start. As with any switch, you must be able to outwit any potential thief. Given time and half a brain, perhaps a thief could figure out you were grounding the coil unless you tapped into the grounding wire up the line. This would be the easiest method. You could also put an interrupt on the solenoid wire but you could still push start it.

Sadly, if someone really wants your car to sell to Saudi Arabia, it's gone and there is not much you can do. You can discourage the locals. and of course you can always take the rotor button with you.
Yes, I saw your schematic in my earlier search. One issue is that I have an electronic distributor, so no points/no rotor. This means I have Elec Ign, doesn't it?

Would your schematic cover putting a switch on the cold side of the coil with Elec Ign?
 
#9 ·
palladin said:
I had posted a schematic for a kill switch. If you have points and not Elec Ign, you can just run a hidden switch to the cold side of the coil, thus not allowing it to start. As with any switch, you must be able to outwit any potential thief. Given time and half a brain, perhaps a thief could figure out you were grounding the coil unless you tapped into the grounding wire up the line. This would be the easiest method. You could also put an interrupt on the solenoid wire but you could still push start it.

Sadly, if someone really wants your car to sell to Saudi Arabia, it's gone and there is not much you can do. You can discourage the locals. and of course you can always take the rotor button with you.
Here is your schematic: http://www.zcar.com/dlattach/attach,1324/70-83_tech_discussion_forum/kill_switch_894873.0.html

I am trying to follow what you are talking about and I get that you have both a switch and a relay. It seems the relay is powered, and so the coil ground is open, when the key is on and the switch is closed. When powered off or if the switch is open, the relay is NOT powered and so the coil ground is closed - the car will run. Is this right?

So the wiring...is this the wiring of a 1970 240z? You talk about headlight washer circuit and mirror switch circuits and I am unsure if a 240z has these circuits.

You have the switch somewhere around the driver's seat and it seems you are sending 12v from the mirror switch power wire, which is live with the ignition switch on, through the kill switch and into the lime green plug/green w/blk stripe wire in the driver knee panel. This powers the headlight washer circuit to green w/blk stripe wire by the coil. Alternatively, you say the 12v kill switch circuit power can come from the ignition switch itself or the cigarette lighter.

Therefore, you must have the relay located by the OEM wiring by the coil. So you mention 4 wires to the relay, but you point out 5 connectors. Your #4 wire goes to the bottom horizontal connector and your comment about the top horizontal connector: the bottom horizontal connector is closed when the relay is NOT powered and the top horizontal connector is open when the relay is NOT powered. Since you want it open only if the relay is powered by ignition on and kill switch thrown, you use the bottom horizontal connector.

So there are two circuits in the relay: the switch circuit and the coil ground circuit.

switch circuit: you used the green w/blk stripe headlight washer wire, which now has the kill switch powering it to relay #1. Does this mean the black wire from the headlight washer circuit is your ground at relay #2?

coil ground circuit: I got confused about what you said with the black w/white stripe wire from the coil ground. You taped it up and ran a new ground? Why didn't you just use the coil ground wire to relay #3? And so relay #4 is a new wire to the neg coil terminal.

Is it the case that the kill switch always turns on when you turn the car off, so you always have to unkill the switch to start the car? Or do you need to remember to close it, to protect the car?

More broadly speaking, comparing this solution with a remote access solution (Crime Stoppers or Viper), those have many features: door lock/unlock, remote start, engine disable, dual stage shock sensor - which is evidently for whether your parked car gets bumped or broken into. I am up for electronic locks (even power windows). Remote start is a pipe dream without the choke, I think. The thing I am having trouble determining is what kind of engine disable it is. The Viper has a Failsafe® Starter Kill, and I cannot tell for the CrimeStoppers kit. Does this mean it does NOT break the coil circuit, but just the starter circuit, and so a push start will do? Perhaps with all the other stuff, it is well enough protected but I do not know enough to say for sure.
 
#10 ·
Not to diss Crimestoppers...but there is the problem of false alarms. Also, how many times have you heard an alarm and no one investigated. So if you got one, get one that sends a signal to your remote.

"...Would your schematic cover putting a switch on the cold side of the coil with Elec Ign?..."
Basically it defaults to the connected position so if the relay was to crap out on you, it would be closed and thus your coil would be grounded. When you throw your switch, you are applying ground to the relay which activates it when the key is turned and power is supplied. Thus no drain on the battery. note: back in the day, you hot wired a car by running 12v to the hot side of the coil. The cold side (neg) was supplied by the opening and closing of the points.
 
#11 ·
reefedjib said:
palladin said:
I had posted a schematic for a kill switch. If you have points and not Elec Ign, you can just run a hidden switch to the cold side of the coil, thus not allowing it to start. As with any switch, you must be able to outwit any potential thief. Given time and half a brain, perhaps a thief could figure out you were grounding the coil unless you tapped into the grounding wire up the line. This would be the easiest method. You could also put an interrupt on the solenoid wire but you could still push start it.

Sadly, if someone really wants your car to sell to Saudi Arabia, it's gone and there is not much you can do. You can discourage the locals. and of course you can always take the rotor button with you.
Yes, I saw your schematic in my earlier search. One issue is that I have an electronic distributor, so no points/no rotor. This means I have Elec Ign, doesn't it?

Would your schematic cover putting a switch on the cold side of the coil with Elec Ign?
Both of my Z cars have electronic ignitions. Both have rotors.

Have you opened your distributor cap and looked inside? If you pull the rotor, I doubt a thief will have a replacement handy.

IMHO, Palladin has the easy answer.
 
#12 ·
palladin said:
Not to diss Crimestoppers...but there is the problem of false alarms. Also, how many times have you heard an alarm and no one investigated. So if you got one, get one that sends a signal to your remote.
Yeah, that's for sure. People, myself included, just tend to get annoyed that the loud noise is interrupting the "Game of Thrones" episode I am trying to watch. These aftermarket alarm systems seem to be especially annoying. A silent alarm/remote indicator seems like the best approach, although I would imagine a load alarm would scare off all but the most proficient and determined, even if no-one came to investigate. Most likely it shortens the time a thief would want to spend troubleshooting an engine kill switch.

Auto door locks (and power windows) are interesting additions. In particular, removing the internal hardware for the existing manual locks, and replacing with auto-locks, would prevent them getting into the car with those flat pry-bar thingies (can't recall the name of them).

Steve240Z73 said:
Both of my Z cars have electronic ignitions. Both have rotors.

Have you opened your distributor cap and looked inside? If you pull the rotor, I doubt a thief will have a replacement handy.

IMHO, Palladin has the easy answer.
I have not received my car yet from the seller, so all I know is he replaced the stock distributor with an electronic distributor. I have no idea if this still has a rotor.

I am not excited about the prospect of protecting my car each time I park by pulling the rotor. :)

"...Would your schematic cover putting a switch on the cold side of the coil with Elec Ign?..."
Basically it defaults to the connected position so if the relay was to crap out on you, it would be closed and thus your coil would be grounded. When you throw your switch, you are applying ground to the relay which activates it when the key is turned and power is supplied. Thus no drain on the battery. note: back in the day, you hot wired a car by running 12v to the hot side of the coil. The cold side (neg) was supplied by the opening and closing of the points.
Regarding that back in the day: it sounds like this is no longer the case? The coil is grounded with a wire and not with the points?

I have the perhaps mistaken conclusion that you have to throw the kill switch, when you park, to protect the car. Is this the case?

Ideally, I would like to be driving with the kill switch "off", so the relay unthrown and "naturally closed" and the coil firing. Then, when I park, turn off the car and have the kill switch "thrown" by default. This way when I, or a bad guy, gets in the car and tries to start it, the kill switch is "naturally closed" when the ignition is powered, the coil relay is thrown, coil cold circuit broken and the car won't start. I would have to throw the kill switch to start the car. I would like to not have to flip a switch when I park and turn off the car.

Perhaps having a push button switch, instead of a toggle, is the approach I am thinking of. It defaults to coil circuit open on ignition circuit powered. Punch the push button to close the coil circuit and run. Punch the button again to kill it for car-jackings. If the relay goes bad, then what?

Sorry to completely complicate such a simple solution.

thanks,
Rob
 
#13 ·
It will still have the rotor, every american Z dizzy had a rotor of some type even the turbos.

Its called a slimjim

Not sure on the price of the sytem but if you are that worried you can install lojack.
 
#15 ·
I wonder how likely a circuit failure is. I would not think that likely, so it should be acceptable to have a N.O. engine circuit.

Here are two links to the same circuit, that uses a magnetic reed switch to enable the starter/coil circuit, a push-button to disable the circuit, for car jackings, and two relays, one normal SPST Bosch relay, and a latching DPDT relay. The only change I would make is to power the DPDT latch relay with the ignition power rather than constant 12v battery power, so when the car is off, it automatically arms.

http://cod.homelinux.org/C/saab/mag_immobiliser/magnetic_immobiliser.pdf
http://www.automotiverewire.com/Documents/ImmobilzerWiring.pdf


  • [li]Engine circuit to the N.O. terminal on the Bosch SPST relay - disabled by default.[/li]
    [li]SPST relay coil circuit to the N.O. circuit of the DPDR latch relay - disabled by default.[/li]
    [li]Ignition power to the DPST relay coil, but reed switch on the ground side - disabled by default. Closed Reed switch activates DPDT.[/li]
    [li]Swipe the magnet over the reed switch and the DPDT powers the SPST relay coil and turns the engine circuit on. Start the engine and go.[/li]
    [li]Push the push-button and depowers the DPDT relay and thus depowers the SPST relay and breaks the engine circuit. Engine stops for car-jacking.[/li]
    [li]Turn off the ignition when stopped and the DPDT loses power and resets the default disabled engine circuit.[/li]

lojack is definitely a possibility, although $700 is steep. At least it is a one-time charge. I will consider this.
 
#16 ·
My bro-inlaw had a button under the carpet next to his seat that he had to hold down to start the car. Not sure what it was but I will ask him what it was.
 
#17 ·
1) If it is automatically disabled, then everytime you stall starting it, you will be trying to start and it won't and you will not realize why.

2) Find the reed switch that is normally open. Heck, find a reed switch. Radio Shack used to have them by the jar full, not any more. Find the window version...they are not at Lowe's. So when you find them...let us know....anyone...anyone...Bueller?
 
#18 ·
palladin said:
1) If it is automatically disabled, then everytime you stall starting it, you will be trying to start and it won't and you will not realize why.
Why is this? Do you have to turn the ignition off before restarting the engine? My VW is like this.

2) Find the reed switch that is normally open. Heck, find a reed switch. Radio Shack used to have them by the jar full, not any more. Find the window version...they are not at Lowe's. So when you find them...let us know....anyone...anyone...Bueller?
Here is a panel mounted reed switch, NO, .5 meter wire, B sensitivity.

http://search.digikey.com/scripts/D...rst_0211_buynow&site=us&mpart=MK04-1A66B-500W

PS. lots more here: http://meder.com/mount_sensor_mk04_uk0.html?&tx_jppageteaser_pi1. 1A66B or 1A66C were recommended. B is more sensitive than C. The last number (500W, 2000W) is the wire length in mm.

Do a supplier search here: http://service.stkcheck.com/?mfg=b0629033-c213-4a47-aba9-65a840d82710
 
#19 ·
*******! I looked all over and never found one...I was ready to steal one off someone's window but couldn't find those either LOL

Now...where are you going to mount it?
 
#20 ·
palladin said:
*******! I looked all over and never found one...I was ready to steal one off someone's window but couldn't find those either LOL

Now...where are you going to mount it?
I did a LOT of searching yesterday but was just finding the house window circuit type for a long while. I just now searched on 'reed switch' and digi-key popped up. go figure.

I realize that those instructions call for using a used remote fob and placing a battery in it. However, if I use the ignition circuit to power me, then I will have to turn the key in the ignition, then swipe the magnet in my fob...which is on my keychain...****! I recall my 71 240z allowed me to remove my key while it was running.

So, either I use constant battery to power the kill circuit or I leave my swipe battery off my keychain.

Or I buy a delay timer: http://www.tessco.com/products/displayProductInfo.do?sku=312752&eventPage=1 with constant battery to power my kill circuit. Then I turn on the ignition, turnoff the ignition, swipe the fob magnet, restart the ignition and start the car. Ugh! Of course, this allows me to restart the car after a stall, without swiping the magnet.

I will have to think about this more.

I was thinking about placing the reed switch 2 cm left of the ... naw, I'm not telling! :)
 
#21 ·
I changed the locks on my 83 and now I can remove the key w/ eng running...comes in handy.
 
#23 ·
As seen above, there are a lot of options. A serious thief is not going to be stopped buy much. They'll probably just tow or trailer the car away. A hidden line lock would slow a perp down too. My concern has been the thought of a carjacking. I would like to be able to cut the fuel pump (fuel injected) or ignition (carbed) using a 15-30 second timer circuit. That would allow me to step away, hopefully unharmed, and what for the car to stall a couple blocks down the road. This assuming I'm not carrying my Keltec P3AT .380 or Sig 220 .45 though. I looked into Lojack a few years ago. It was/is expensive. Back then the installer had to 'hide' the transmitter from the customer to meet some f'ing requirement. Now, there's no place on my 240Z or 280Z that this could possibly be hidden that I wouldn't know about it. Plus the installer might screw something up which I would be very upset over. As such, I just didn't follow through. When I park my car in an uncomfortable place I pull the ignition lead off the starter and the coil secondary wire which I stuff in my pocket. It won't deter a perp from trashing my car or stop a professional thief but it's all I can do. The best bet is a declared value insurance. My 240Z just appraised at $21,650.
 
#24 ·
ezzzzzzz said:
A hidden line lock would slow a perp down too.
What's a line lock?

I got a solid recommendation for a security installer and spoke to him for awhile this morning. He is really good. I have hooked into the locally owned network of guys, for tranny/diff/paint/engine/security specialists. I do love to support local businesses and the service is better.

First thing he recommends is a GPS tracker, with a separate charging backup battery. $250 one time payment.

The decision is between Viper ($650 incl labor) and a custom circuit ($400???).

Viper has:

  • [li]remote[/li]
    [li]auto door locks[/li]
    [li]starter circuit interrupt (can switch to neg ignition coil)[/li]
    [li]shock sensor + alarm (sensitivity is configurable)[/li]
    [li]remote start[/li]
    [li]messages back to you (SMS/cell/email???)[/li]
    [li]other stuff I am sure...[/li]

custom circuit should have:

  • [li]powered with the ignition circuit[/li]
    [li]can interrupt the neg ignition coil ground[/li]
    [li]have no voltage across the relay coil in normal operation[/li]
    [li]have a kill switch, that is not a toggle, that is a momentary switch[/li]
    [li]auto rearm the kill interrupt, after 30 secs of no ignition circuit voltage[/li]
    [li]have one or more push/momentary switches to turn off the kill - all must be 'closed' together to disarm[/li]

The problem with the second diagram, which has a powered relay coil circuit turn on the hot side of the starter, is that with the starter, you only need it when starting, not to run the engine. It is also powered. If we switch it to the neg side of the ignition coil, it would still be powered all the time, and there is a difference between powering the relay coil to power voltage through the relay and power the relay coil to connect ground. On the ground side, we do NOT want to be powering the relay.

I am leaning toward the custom circuit, as it gives me exactly what I want. I don't need auto door locks, remote start, messages (especially with a GPS) ... I am not sure if I should get a shock sensor + siren. They are annoying and no one ever comes.
 
#25 ·
your post of May 08, 2011, Yes you are confused.

A relay is used to interrupt the ground to the coil. The relay has 5 posts...we use 4. Something has to power the relay so that it interrupts the coil. That is the purpose of the switch in a location known only to you. We use a 12v source that is active only when the ign is on. Thus there is never a drain on the battery from a powered relay. Yes you have to throw the switch when you get out of the car.

If you are incapable of thinking of arming your security yourself...you should run for congress to pass more laws that protect people from themselves. This is a cheap alternative to $700 for a viper system. Perhaps you would be better spending the $700. A gun is fine if you know it is coming but would be of little use in a car jacking. Hence put your kill switch in the seat of the car so when you get out, the car stalls....only on that long trip when you squirm in your seat...it will also probably stall.
 
#26 ·
Oh, well if you put it that way. So I was over-engineering...I took your advice and went with the STCPW.

That was totally harsh, dude. You know you are better off using CFLs. They have your best interests at heart.
 
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