ZCar Forum banner

Status
Not open for further replies.
41 - 60 of 128 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
50 Posts
Ripple Effect?

Sounds terrible like 'Trickle Down Economics' which the local bureaucracy has said caused these problems, and doesn't work.

Perhaps if it doesn't then the related 'ripple effect' is as much hot air as 'trickle down' was a generation ago...

Can't have it both ways!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,803 Posts
Explain to me why they're still coming here to build cars. In Atlanta Hyundai is building a new plant just south of Atlanta. If others can do it and be profitable then why can't the big three.... Answer: They don't have years of legacy payoff benefits to hold them back.

As you can see I’m not a fan of Unions.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,033 Posts
The problem with letting them go into bankruptcy is that no one wants to buy a car from a bankrupted company. If the company goes down, so does the warranty and parts availability which is not something consumers want to risk. The cost of losing any one of these companies is far greater than the 25 billion they need to survive. Now I know they don't deserve the money but I'd rather have a greedy person saved than our economy go down the tube. With the big three in as much trouble as they are, they are willing to accept almost any condition on the loans, so basically the government can dictate how the money is spent. At some point, we have to swallow our capitalistic pride and do what's best for our country. All of our lives will be better if these companies survive and to survive, they need this loan. And as norm pointed out, 25 billion really is nothing compared to this war we are in. If we end the war just a month sooner than we would otherwise, that's 25 billion right there.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,924 Posts
I get it... so capitolism, or rather "natural selection" for corporations, is perfectly fine until three large corporations are about to fail. In that case, we overlook the thousands of smaller companies that have failed with no help, and give GM, Ford, and Chrysler the money to keep being retards for as long as they want?

I don't think so. I don't mind a bail out, as long as there are strict stipulations involved. For example, if they can't release a 65mpg diesel in the US within the next year, they should get no money.

Its already proven that Ford can build such a vehicle, its just that our current restrictions and regulations prevent it from being profitable here in the USA. That obviously means we need to re think our restrictions and regulations..
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,120 Posts
It's about time, Tony!! I mean, Bushi..

Good to see you back, Tony D.!!
(edit) Oh, ummm..Bushi...

We've given (SOLD) every edge we had in manufacturing (steel, automotive, technological, on and on, ad nauseum), to the : Japanese, Chinese, Indians, Koreans, etc.
We've sold our country to the highest bidder.
We've given every other guy in the world such a great chance to make a buck in America that we have no great edge in the marketplace any longer. Almost every other country in the world protects their markets (as a strategic asset) against unfair competition. Not us! We have to have it CHEAP!! GO WAL-MART!!!
You know, we sold all of our supply of oil overseas! Think about it: we were a oil-EXPORTING nation. No longer.
How many televisions are manufactured in the U.S. nowadays? How many are exported?
The long-term plans of the Japanese companies completely defeated our short-sited policies, because everyone, including our government, was interested in a quick buck. "I want it right here, right now." Feel free to substitute: steel, automobiles, technology instead of televisions.
Yet, when someone b*tches about the fact that foreigners own so much of America, those same foreigners rightly ask, "Well, why did you sell it?" Hmmmm.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,033 Posts
phxZ31 said:
I get it... so capitolism, or rather "natural selection" for corporations, is perfectly fine until three large corporations are about to fail. In that case, we overlook the thousands of smaller companies that have failed with no help, and give GM, Ford, and Chrysler the money to keep being retards for as long as they want?
Well, yes, up until that last part. The money the government is proposing to give them will have restrictions. I don't know the whole thing in detail but I'm pretty sure one of the restrictions is that a large chunk of the money has to go into high efficiency vehicles. They won't be able to spend it how ever they want. They had their chance to do that and they failed miserably.

I'm in agreement that the safety regulations that keep out a lot of small cars should be redone. If consumers are willing to give up some safety to get a fuel efficient car, that should be their right.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,131 Posts
GroupZ said:
---------------------------------------------
Bankruptcy reorganization is not back to zero.

Total failure is. Bankruptcy provides the reorganization mode and if with gov't money and stipulations involved - good.

When the court gets involved the cash outflow will be slowed until the court decides which creditors receive funds, in part based on the effect on the creditor's viability. Contracts can be renegotiated, if the court determines so.

The "natural selection" of business failures and its effects on the economy is capitalists' risks, but most smaller business failures do not pose the drastic possibilities to the economy of the Big Three.

When M&As have created massive companies as opposed to the thousands of smaller companies that once existed, the results of failure are felt throughout larger sectors of the economy all at once instead of at a "natural" pace.
 
Joined
·
8,110 Posts
Discussion Starter #51
The real irony of it all is the outspoken moronic Senators who have bashed GM's "managerial incompetence" whilst ignoring the fact that under THEIR leadership they have saddled this nation with a TEN TRILLION DOLLAR DEBT!!!

If weren't so sad it would be hilarious.....as a nation we are screwed...Mad Max lifestyles can't be very far off now.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
808 Posts
I agree with Norm. Besides,this isn't a bailout. As Norm points out, it's an unfortunate consequence of the financial crisis precipitated by Wall Street. Too much of the North American economy (including Canada's) is dependent on auto manufacturing. One in 10 jobs is tied to it. How much does the American military rely on domestic auto companies? How much R&D and scientific research is supported by the industry?

I couldn't Google the multiplier for the auto industry, but all commentators said it was very high, one of the highest for any industry. That would probably put it in the 5-6 range, I'm guessing. That means for every dollar spent by the auto industry there is a secondary benefit of $5-6 dollar in other industries.

Does anyone want to risk those benefits for a measly $25 billion after you just spent $700 billion+ bailing out the banks?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
668 Posts
Measly 25 billion:

Calgary280zt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I agree with Norm. Besides,this isn't a bailout.
> As Norm points out, it's an unfortunate
> consequence of the financial crisis precipitated
> by Wall Street. Too much of the North American
> economy (including Canada's) is dependent on auto
> manufacturing. One in 10 jobs is tied to it. How
> much does the American military rely on domestic
> auto companies? How much R&D and scientific
> research is supported by the industry?
>
> I couldn't Google the multiplier for the auto
> industry, but all commentators said it was very
> high, one of the highest for any industry. That
> would probably put it in the 5-6 range, I'm
> guessing. That means for every dollar spent by
> the auto industry there is a secondary benefit of
> $5-6 dollar in other industries.
>
> Does anyone want to risk those benefits for a
> measly $25 billion after you just spent $700
> billion+ bailing out the banks?


How much is Canada gonna kick in to save the 'American' automotive industry?
Nothing?
It's not your problem?
(Let's close all those 'offshore' assembly plants and cut off all 'foreign' suppliers)
You are a US company, not if what you make or do takes place outside of the US.
Protectionism will be the rule forward.
President-elect Obama already has said he wants to readdress NAFTA.

Then go peddle your oil elsewhere.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,215 Posts
Mark, I am sorry but I have to disagree with yours and Norm's assessment. The financial crisis only accelerated the Big 3s woes. The management at GM has lost tens of billions and considerable market share since the late 1990s. They chose to ignore the small car market and focus their efforts on high margin vehicles like trucks and SUVs.

****, Bob Lutz and Rick Wagoner were confident that their new truck in 2007 would be the next big thing and save the company. Even then people were looking for fuel efficient cars.

The simple fact of the matter is that the Big 2 do not have a competitive small car or family sedan. Ford is the only company that appears to have a viable strategy for moving forward.

Camry, Corolla, Accord, Civic, Altima, Maxima - these names have been around for 10, 20, over 30 years. Name one Big 3 vehicle today that has had a continuous run for even 10 years. They never improve upon a vehicle, they are always looking for the moonshot.

The Big 2 have nothing in their line-up that is remotely competitive. Honestly, does anything think they have a car to compete with the Corolla, Civic or Altima?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,590 Posts
I just received this email from GM (no joke)

Piper5177,

You made the right choice when you put your confidence in General Motors, and we appreciate your past support. I want to assure you that we are making our best vehicles ever, and we have exciting plans for the future. But we need your help now. Simply put, we need you to join us to let Congress know that a bridge loan to help U.S. automakers also helps strengthen the U.S. economy and preserve millions of American jobs.

Despite what you may be hearing, we are not asking Congress for a bailout but rather a loan that will be repaid.

The U.S. economy is at a crossroads due to the worldwide credit crisis, and all Americans are feeling the effects of the worst economic downturn in 75 years. Despite our successful efforts to restructure, reduce costs and enhance liquidity, U.S. auto sales rely on access to credit, which is all but frozen through traditional channels.

The consequences of the domestic auto industry collapsing would far exceed the $25 billion loan needed to bridge the current crisis. According to a recent study by the Center for Automotive Research:

• One in 10 American jobs depends on U.S. automakers
• Nearly 3 million jobs are at immediate risk
• U.S. personal income could be reduced by $150 billion
• The tax revenue lost over 3 years would be more than $156 billion

Discussions are now underway in Washington, D.C., concerning loans to support U.S. carmakers. I am asking for your support in this vital effort by contacting your state representatives.

Please take a few minutes to go to www.gmfactsandfiction.com, where we have made it easy for you to contact your U.S. senators and representatives. Just click on the "I'm a Concerned American" link under the "Mobilize Now" section, and enter your name and ZIP code to send a personalized e-mail stating your support for the U.S. automotive industry.

Let me assure you that General Motors has made dramatic improvements over the last 10 years. In fact, we are leading the industry with award-winning vehicles like the Chevrolet Malibu, Cadillac CTS, Buick Enclave, Pontiac G8, GMC Acadia, Chevy Tahoe Hybrid, Saturn AURA and more. We offer 18 models with an EPA estimated 30 MPG highway or better — more than Toyota or Honda. GM has 6 hybrids in market and 3 more by mid-2009. GM has closed the quality gap with the imports, and today we are putting our best quality vehicles on the road.

Please share this information with friends and family using the link on the site.

Thank you for helping keep our economy viable.

Sincerely,



Troy Clarke
 
41 - 60 of 128 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top