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77-280z Wrote:
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> Under the current system, the people of the United
> States pay more for health care per person than
> the people of ANY other country, yet our average
> life expectancy is 50th in the world, right in
> front of Albania. Something isn't working. One
> definition of insanity is repeating the same thing
> and expecting different results.


Obviously you never paid insurance in Europe .....
 

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77-280z Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Under the current system, the people of the United
> States pay more for health care per person than
> the people of ANY other country, yet our average
> life expectancy is 50th in the world, right in
> front of Albania. Something isn't working. One
> definition of insanity is repeating the same thing
> and expecting different results.


You don't think that America being the most obese country has anything to do with a shorter life expectancy?
 

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frank said:
Obviously you never paid insurance in Europe
It's still cheaper then what we pay here. The cost is more spread out there but they pay less per person then we do. Period. It's one thing to spread the cost of something that we have control over but as to who gets cancer, it's mostly a crap shoot. There are always exceptions, like smokers who have a higher risk, but most people don't plan on getting sick.

jbond said:
You don't think that America being the most obese country has anything to do with a shorter life expectancy?
It definitely does. But obesity is a health problem, along with all the other health care issues this country has. I'm not saying that what is being proposed will fix all the problems we have. But we need to do something because what we have now is a country where the people pay the most but don't get the most. When people in western europe pay less per person then we do and are at least as healthy, to me that means that we have some catching up to do. And anyone else ever find it funny that Americans complain more about the health care system in European countries than the people that actually live there? This is not a shot at Frank but more of a reflection of what I hear lots of people saying. Ask someone from Europe. Chances are that they like their health care system. Of course, there are always people who will disagree but the majority of people polled and people I've personally talked to seem to think favorably of it.

And also, look at infant mortality in the USA. We are behind Cuba. And that has little to do with obesity. We are still above average but we are far from first. Considering we pay the most, we aren't exactly getting our money's worth.

28 Cuba
29 Channel Islands ( Jersey and Guernsey)
30 Brunei
31 Cyprus
32 New Caledonia
33 United States
34 Croatia
35 Malta
36 Martinique
37 Poland
 

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I've also talked to a few RNs, or others in the same field (sorry, no doctors) who have worked for a gov't healthcare system, a couple which were European, and they said it was nothing like the hype was - hence why they came over here for our health plan. As for the infant mortality rate, those numbers don't reflect how many of those babies were born in an un-supervised or hospitalized environment, or if the babies' parents did any kind of drugs, excessive drinking, etc. Also, are those numbers based strictly off a total count, or are they percentages factoring the population, because obviously when you compare a country of over 300 million to Cuba's 11 million or Croatia's 4.5 million, then yeah chances are we're going to have higher numbers.

As sue-happy is our country is, hospitals are under a lot of pressure to provide adequate care and service to its patients. You think that if an infant is having trouble staying alive once it pops out, the delivery nurse will just call everyone to gather around and watch it die? No, they try everything they can to keep it alive...****, from a financial point of view, that makes them more money anyways. What if we get a gov't healthcare plan, and the gov't says that it would cost too much to try to save the baby, so with its very low chance of survival, they'll have to deny the claim. What makes you think that won't happen? I don't understand how the gov't taking over healthcare will suddenly help our infant mortality rate. I'm sure there are outliers in those statistics, assuming they're accurate, that are skewing the numbers.
 

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This isn't car related as was pointed out - and second, jbond has a cognitive dissonance (ie. self-dismissing excuse) for each negative point about our broken healthcare system, thus no point continuing this.
 

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Asking someone in Europe what they think about their health care has nothing to do with how its quality compared to the US. It's simply how they perceive it. The cost that is paid per person also has nothing to do with is quality either, nor does who can get it. That's a matter of what you perceive as "fair". Ask someone who had health care in the US and in Europe what they think or ask yourself why people come here all the time to take advantage of our health care system.

Heath care in the US is way too expensive, but I'm willing to pay for it to get better service and quality. Some people may not be. The fact is the quality is better here, plus most medical advances and innovations come out of the US. The free market provides incentive for this.

The price is high because of the restrictions and regulation place on health insurance companies by the government. In addition to that frivolous lawsuit awards that sky rocket the cost of malpractice insurance. Instead of addressing these problems we'd rather just make it "fair" for everyone change the whole system and wait in line to eventually get that cancer radiation. Oh unless of course the government decides that would be a waste of money since you're 75 and their not sure you're live long enough to justify the cost.

I guess this would be an over simplified analogy, but if some people don't get their cars fixed because it cost too much and the government decides that's not "fair" then something’s gotta give. I mean if the shops are gonna get the same amount of money for the same work the cost will be more. If there gonna get a set amount and be expected to take on the same work, incentive will drop, corners will be cut, cheap parts will be used, and quality will suffer. If everyone now brings there cars to the shop well that will mean longer waits unless you get more mechanics and if there’s only some much money to go around how’s that gonna work unless you raise the taxes to pay for it? Our Z’s won’t be fixed by a shop because of there age the cost won’t be justified not to mention they aren’t safe enough, efficient enough, and pollute to much. I mean I could go on and on, but the same things will happen to health care.
 

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The infant mortality list I posted was based on number of deaths per thousand babies born. That list is not hard to find. Just type "infant mortality rate" into google and you'll find it on a number of websites. Any outliers present are also present in other countries. And if for some reason there is a part of the US that has a ridiculous number of dying babies (which would constitute an outlier) that might a reason for reform. There is a reason that some doctors and other medical professionals decide to come here and that reason is money. We pay more and the doctors get more, at least the doctors that work with people who have money. Our system is great if you are a doctor that works with rich people. We have many talented doctors. But if you can't afford them, you are out of luck, or at least worse off than you are in a number of other countries.

Babies are born out of hospitals everywhere. Parents drink and use drugs everywhere. Those are not problems isolated to the United States. If you have enough money or are fortunate enough to have a job that provides good insurance, you are fine. But there are millions that can't afford insurance and millions more that can't afford enough to cover the costs of a severe illness. I have no sympathy for people who live destructive lives and then demand care. But there are plenty of hard working people that can't afford the care they need. It is a fact of life that people will get sick and die. There are some people that can't be saved no matter what. But if we insist on paying doctors so much, we might as well try to get our money's worth.

Also, the proposed healthcare reform is not a government take over. If you like the coverage you have, you will be able to keep it. And the insurance companies people have now deny claims too.
 

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I've had my own rants about health care and see where this is heading....
crap..get the gov't involved and then let people start
reacting to the amounts of money involved. Somewhere in history, the medical fields have inflated incomes beyond what I feel is a humanitarian service to society...They don't do it for that and are in it for the money....might as well
start ranking doctors with a G1 to G12 pay-scale rating, limit the number of doctors that can enter the gov't health system every year and let those who don't participate thrive off the independently wealthy few who pay whatever wanted by private doctors. I can see where its heading and wonder if pay scales will ever cap for what time and energy is involved..its not a service anymore but a business...(now I'm not suggesting it goes that way, but it could..)
Ha, and to top that the veternarians want to rank themselves up there with the
rest of medical fields...crap, should've seen the last vet bill for blood tests
on a dog...where does it end...?
My other rant is, yes, driver related...dui'ers are sent to treatment in state subsidized programs...where was the crime? it was "driving while intoxicated", not
BEING intoxicated...They make things worse thinking they can fix a drink problem
but the crime wasn't drinking in itself, it was what they were doing at the time!
Someone in the system blind to that?
I've told many that if I could have the $6000-7000 insurance/subsid. money per every kid in these classes, 25-30 kids a month and do this 8-9 times a year I'd be a millionaire in a year...doesn't take an idiot to figure the math on that.
Now where is all that money going...a few speakers, booklets, etc, not much in expenses and run out of delapidated duplexes!...haha...it kills me to think why
this has gone WAY to far..yank their license, they need to learn the hard way!
 

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Infant mortality rates in Cuba are 9 times higher than in the US, Cuba includes children up to 5 years old in their infant mortality rate that's why you see the lower rate. It's these and other BS reports on the Cuban med system that the Mike Moores like to use to try and advance their adjenda.
Take a closer look. This was just in the news recently, what you see in your leftist propaganda about the Cuban med system is from one hospital that's set up for that purpose. In virtualy every other Cuban hospital patients live in squalor. If family members don't bring food they go without, if family does'nt come and chang sheets, wash clothing, and administer to basic needs the patient goes without.
Please don't bring that leftist garbage to this argument. Hey, next time you get sick you can catch a plane to cuba or europe and take advantage of their wonderful med systems, right? after all all the rich people of the world go to cuba and europe for health care, right?
Yep just google something that'll educate you.


Good thing for us that Rich Noyes of The Media Research Center keeps on eye on CNN. Good thing for CNN too. Given the latest Nielsen ratings (that finds them 17th during prime time) Ted "Fidel Castro is one helluva guy!" Turner's brainchild should be grateful for any and all viewers, whatever their motivation.


Last week, according to Noyes expose',


"CNN aired a piece of Communist Party propaganda about how Cuba could serve as 'a model for health care reform in the United States' "


The CNN report included clips from Michael Moore's Sicko as CNN's Morgan Neill, on location in a Potemkin Havana hospital, gushed about Cuban healthcare's "impressive statistics." "Cuba's infant mortality rates" he reported, "are the lowest in the hemisphere, in line with those of Canada!"


"Amazing!" probably gasped the type of person who watches CNN nowadays (Noyes gets a pass here.) "Perfect proof of "yes we can!" they probably high-fived. "No wonder Colin Powell said "Castro had done some good things for his people!" No wonder Michael Moore catches so much grief from those insufferable Miami Cubans! Before Castro only they could afford doctors, as Cuba's huddled masses languished in sickness and poverty!"


And indeed, according to UN figures, Cuba's current infant mortality rate places her 44th from the top in worldwide ranking, right next to Canada. (the lower the rate the higher the ranking)


What CNN left out is that according to those same UN figures, in 1958 (the year prior to the glorious revolution), Cuba ranked 13th from the top, worldwide. This meant that robustly capitalist Cuba had the 13th lowest infant-mortality rate in the world. This put her not only at the top in Latin America but atop most of Western Europe, ahead of France, Belgium, West Germany, Israel, Japan, Austria, Italy, Spain, and Portugal. Today all of these countries leave Communist Cuba in the dust, with much lower infant mortality rates.


And even plummeting from 13th (Capitalist) to 44th (Communist), Cuba's "impressive" infant mortality rate is kept artificially low by Communist chicanery with statistics and by a truly appalling abortion rate of 0.71 abortions per live birth. This is the hemisphere's highest, by far. Any Cuban pregnancy that even hints at trouble gets "terminated."


Also noteworthy: according to the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons, the mortality rate of Cuban children aged one to four years is 34% higher than the U.S. (11.8 versus 8.8 per 1,000). But these don't figure into UN and World Health Organization spotlighted "infant-mortality rates," you see. So the pressure is not on Cuban doctors to fudge these figures -- yet.

In April 2001, Dr. Juan Felipe García, MD, of Jacksonville, Fla., interviewed several recent doctor defectors from Cuba. Based on what he heard, he reported the following:


"The official Cuban infant-mortality figure is a farce. Cuban pediatricians constantly falsify figures for the regime. If an infant dies during its first year, the doctors often report he was older. Otherwise, such lapses could cost him severe penalties and his job."


More interesting (and tragic) still, the maternal mortality rate in Cuba is almost four times that of the U.S. rate (33 versus 8.4 per 1,000). Peculiar how so many mothers die during childbirth in Cuba, and how many one- to four-year-olds perish -- while from birth to one year old (the period during which they qualify in UN statistics as infants) they're perfectly healthy!

This might lead a few people to question Cuba's official infant-mortality figures. But such people would not get a Havana bureau for their news agency, much less a visa to film a documentary.

Ninety-nine percent of Cubans have no more experience with hospitals like the one Michael Moore featured in Sicko and CNN's Morgan Neill visited, than Moore has with a Soloflex. Most Cubans view these hospitals the way teenage boys used to view Playboy magazine and forlorn husbands view a Victoria's Secret catalog: "Wow! If only. . ."


The Castroite propaganda in Sicko so outraged people cursed by fate to live in Castro's fiefdom that they risked their lives by using hidden cameras to film conditions in genuine Cuban hospitals, hoping they could alert the world to Moore's swinishness as a propaganda operative for a Stalinist regime.


At enormous risk, two hours of shocking, often revolting, footage was obtained with tiny hidden cameras and smuggled out of Cuba to Cuban-exile George Utset, who runs the superb and revelatory website The Real Cuba. The man who assumed most of the risk during the filming and smuggling was Cuban dissident -- a medical doctor himself -- Dr Darsi Ferrer, who was also willing to talk on camera, narrating much of the video's revelations. Dr Ferrer works in these genuinely Cuban hospitals daily, witnessing the truth. More importantly, he wasn't cowed from revealing this truth to America and the world.


Originally, ABC's John Stossel planned to show the shocking videos in their entirety, during a 20/20 show. Alas, on Sept. 12th 2007, the 20/20 show ran only a tiny segment on Cuba's "real" healthcare, barely 5 minutes long and with almost none of the smuggled video footage. What happened?


Well, the Castro regime got wind of these videos and called in ABC's Havana bureau for a little talking-to, stressing that ABC's "bureau permit" might face "closer scrutiny" if they showed the blockbuster videos.

ABC (and yes, Stossel, whom we all otherwise admire) wimped out.

Enter Fox News, and Sean Hannity in particular. Your humble servant here contacted Hannity's producers regarding the smuggled videos and they immediately requested a look. Within hours they jumped on them and produced a blockbuster of a show. Seen here. And here. Fox viewers saw naked patients covered with flies while lying on "hospital beds" consisting of a bare mattress. They saw a building that would be condemned by the health board of any U.S. municipality serving as "hospitals." They saw and heard Dr Darsi Ferrer along with other Cubans who described their inability to obtain something so basic as aspirins.


"Greed," was the motif of Michael Moore's Sicko, right? "Greed" is what Obama's plan will abolish, right?


Well, Fox viewers saw footage of Cubans being told (by regime apparatchiks) that aspirins and other medicines just might be available to them -- but only if they paid in U.S. dollars, not the Cuban pesos they held out in desperation.
 

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madolive said:
Cuba includes children up to 5 years old in their infant mortality rate that's why you see the lower rate.
Uhh, that would make them look worse. The older you go, the higher it gets. What if they went to 100 years old. Mortality would be like 990 out of 1000 babies. People don't magically come back to life. Mortality rate is how many babies die out of 1000. The lower the age is set, the lower the rate. But I assume that you meant to say something that didn't directly contradict the article you copied and pasted.

I'm not trying to glorify Cuba. If you have a more complex disease, they don't have the talent to help. But not all of communism is bad. Almost everyone there has access to basic health care. The same can not be said for the United States. That is just one positive aspect of Cuba. I'm not saying that it is a great place or that I would want to go there. But it's not the utter **** hole that the US government wants you to think it is. It's not a nice place but there are definitely worse places to be.

But forget Cuba. What about Croatia. We do about as well as they do even though they are behind us in other respects. I'm not trying to bash them but you'd think we would be able to do more than slightly better than they do. In fact, look at any of the countries that we are near on the list. They definitely aren't the worst places on earth but no one can deny that the US looks a bit out of place next to them.

Please don't bring that leftist garbage to this argument.
Please don't bring right wing garbage into this argument then, if that's how you want to put it.
 

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Hard To Believe...

This guy is from Michigan...in the same District that gave us Stanebow and Bob Traxler of all people!

Traditionally the 8th is a republican district, but with those two recent mistakes you wonder what goes on sometimes in Michigan...
 

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?

MaelstrØm Wrote:
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> To use his analogy, the current system is like
> your car insurance company not paying for an
> accident because you didn't adjust the tire
> pressure in your car just right, or didn't change
> your oil on their schedule (ie. pre-existing
> failures).

Why shouldn't car insurance be able to disclude NEGLIENCE from it's listed exclusions? They should. Then again, that would put the onus on PEOPLE to take care of themselves, wouldn't it.

Poor Analogy...

I don't see where socialized medicine is a good thing, all it does is bring everybody down to a poor level of service, so nobody gets decent care...

Oh yeah, brilliant idea, that!
 

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Hey Frank, about insurance in Europe...

Why don't you tell them about your $200 root canal in SoCal which INCLUDED anesthetic?

See, in Holland they don't USE sleep dentistry. And it COSTS MORE!

It is actually cheaper for Frank to FLY TO THE USA FOR A WEEK and get his dental work done (and never feel a thing) than it is to use the wonderful EUROPEAN SYSTEM.

Most of the talk here is based on hearesay and very little firsthand observation or experience. I read the articles on the 22 week and 5 day old premature baby being denied ANY healthcare because the limit is births of 23 weeks or longer gestation...someone decided that a child born before that is 'not viable' and therefore the socialized medicine will not 'waste the money'...

HARD to swallow when you're the mother, and have to wait for 2 and a half hours as your premature baby dies in your arms as the nurses tell you 'there's nothing they are going to do, honey, just enjoy the time you can with the wee one!'

Oh, and you can't sue over that, either. See, the gubbmint made the decision, not the doctor, and you can't sue the gubbmint.

Yeah, that's what I want...

In healthcare OR Car Insurance!
People talk about torto reform...the JCI (Japanese Compulsory Insurance) you get when you register your car allows for any number of deformities after an accident and puts caps on the payout. You get injured, you get paid...and it's over. No jackpot justice, just knowing what you will get and what the costs will be controls costs. But we will never go for that here, either, because people need to get rich off a lawsuit due to their own neglience!
 

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I remember reading somewhere that I can't find the article now, that in Cuba, that some people in Cuba that could, would leave Cuba, come to the US and pay for their medical treatments. Including, dentist, doctor, eye doctor, and so forth, then go back to Cuba once it was taken care of.
 

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Jbond makes good points!

jbond Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You think that if an
> infant is having trouble staying alive once it
> pops out, the delivery nurse will just call
> everyone to gather around and watch it die? No,
> they try everything they can to keep it
> alive...****, from a financial point of view, that
> makes them more money anyways. What if we get a
> gov't healthcare plan, and the gov't says that it
> would cost too much to try to save the baby, so
> with its very low chance of survival, they'll have
> to deny the claim. What makes you think that
> won't happen? I don't understand how the gov't
> taking over healthcare will suddenly help our
> infant mortality rate.

I spoke of this VERY situation, and it is VERY common in England's System. They will not provide any support for premature infants before 23 weeks gestation. A mistake in the conception date registration can be the difference between life and death in these instances. I read the article on Sept 11th flying on British Airways Sydney to Bangkok from a newspaper based in London if anybody wants to search the nexus database. These are the things nobody wants to admit.

Jbond makes **** good points, when you are in a crackwhore environment with rampant teenage pregnancy, you can expect infant mortality to be high...and I'm thinking this is probably a 'good thing' to be honest. This is darwinisim in action. All socialized medicine will do under our current proposal is waste money on these dregs, at the expense of productive citizens care.

Remember in England doctors are racing to get into private care groups so they can provide the CARE THEY DETERMINE IS BEST, not the government guidelines. Healthcare England is facing a 10% cut across the board due to financial constraints. Guess who's going to face the brunt of those cuts? And who won't be allowed an alternative!

Yeah, something I'd want...
 

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Arrgh!

77-280z Wrote:
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>
> I'm not trying to glorify Cuba.
Quack, Quack!
> If you have a
> more complex disease, they don't have the talent
> to help.
If you have a basic disease, they don't have the talent to help...that was the point, you missed that, apparently.
> But not all of communism is bad. Almost
> everyone there has access to basic health care.
> The same can not be said for the United States.
Absolutely true, while ALMOST everyone in a COMMUNIST country like Cuba has access to healthcare, EVERYONE IN THE USA DOES! Show up at ANY emergency room in the USA and see if you are turned away for treatment. And if you get 'substandard' treatment, is it any less treatment than you get under a socialized system? Likely not, likely in America it's better. People fly to the USA on a REGULAR basis to avail themselves of our medical system because THEY CAN'T GET THAT KIND OF CARE UNDER A SOCIALIZED SYSTEM! What does that say? Really, what does that say if they are leaving and coming here for treatment? As for 'not all of communisim is bad' I would say 'only the parts that are counter to human nature...by definition all of it is!' So yeah, communisim is bad, especially the portion about central control of all countries through a communist international congress seated far away from your resident country. 77-280Z, you reveal your ignorance of the world once again. Please spend some time with the great communist success stories around the world before making such ignorant comments!
> That is just one positive aspect of Cuba. I'm not
> saying that it is a great place or that I would
> want to go there. But it's not the utter @#$%&
> hole that the US government wants you to think it
> is.
Ever been there? Ever been to ANY third world country? Been there in 1958 to compare it to today?
> It's not a nice place but there are
> definitely worse places to be.
to be sure, but aside from the fact that cuba can trade with EVERY country on the face of the planet, it chooses to blame the USA not trading with it as the EXCUSE for EVERY failure it has. Had it not been for the soviets pumping in massive aid packages and supporting a corrupt regime they would have died out decades ago. Now Hugo Chavez is pumping in millions, just to pi$$ off the USA and position himself as the modern day Simon Bolivar. Having been to some of the countries in latin america...let's just say, politely, yer talking out your behind on this point.
> But forget Cuba. What about Croatia. We do about
> as well as they do even though they are behind us
> in other respects. I'm not trying to bash them
> but you'd think we would be able to do more than
> slightly better than they do. In fact, look at
> any of the countries that we are near on the list.
> They definitely aren't the worst places on earth
> but no one can deny that the US looks a bit out of
> place next to them.
Why? Contextually, lets ask how many people want to illegally imigrate to Croatia. You look at a single aspect of a society and want to change the WHOLE culture that appeals to THE WORLD in order to fix WHAT again?
>
> Please don't bring that leftist garbage to this
> argument.
> Please don't bring right wing garbage into this
> argument then, if that's how you want to put it.
How about realizing that lies exist on both sides, but in the grand scheme of things communisim and socialisim are counter to human nature and are destined to fail. As a child there is great appeal in communisim and socialisim as it allows you to remain like a child longer. But as you grow up (or some people realize as children), you realize that some people CAN'T be helped, and you really shouldn't waste time and effort on them. You can't save everybody, and you shouldn't try. Humans die, and it's no different than any other animal. The difference is we have a system where if you WANT to spend a lot of money to save YOURSELF then you can. And that is the way it should be. Because once you take away your ability to save yourself---how hard will you work to save someone else?

Think about it...
 

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Actually...

souldestroyer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I remember reading somewhere that I can't find the
> article now, that in Cuba, that some people in
> Cuba that could, would leave Cuba, come to the US
> and pay for their medical treatments. Including,
> dentist, doctor, eye doctor, and so forth, then go
> back to Cuba once it was taken care of.

Actually, that is most of the world that has socialized medicine. If the people have the means, many times they will come to the USA to have procedures done in a timely or better fashion rather than wait and die on some waiting list.

Frank 280ZX is an example. His socialized medicine dentist was operating on his teeth using no novacaine, and doing poor work as it was. His tooth literally fell apart while at a swap meet and I drove him, curled up in the fetal positon on the floor of my dodge 1500 whimpering to a dentist on a SUNDAY MORNING who then performed a cap and root canal for a whole $200 then there, DONE! With novacaine. Frank didn't feel a thing! While there he got a quote for ALL his dental work. Not only were the socialized dentists using outdated and 'cheap proven procedures' they were doing it without anestetic. It was literally cheaper for frank to buy another ticket, fly to LA for a two week holiday, have all the work done and pay for it cash, and then fly home than it was going to cost him under the 'socialized insurance scheme' they have in Holland.

Talking with some more Dutch guys over the weekend they were shocked to find the costs of routine procedures so CHEAP in the USA. And that they were performed on an outpatient basis without waiting---ESPECIALLY dentistry.

The dentist Frank went to had several clients who fly over on business and do all their dentistry with him in the USA paying cash because IT's CHEAPER and HE USES NOVACAINE! Apparently there is incentive to 'keep costs down' so you know...anestetic is just adding costs...

Anybody remember "Marathon Man"?

For all the hoopla, the world comes to the USA to avail themselves of our system. Emergency Rooms can not turn away patients based on ability to pay (UNLIKE IN MANY OTHER COUNTRIES!)

Everybody here has "ACCESS"---to say they don't is a baldfaced lie, propaganda, untrue!

But the guy made a good point: what's next in the socialisim parade? Car Insurance? How about caps on salaries for people in Financial Businesses who don't 'add value'? Or better yet, abolition of private stock ownership altogether and public ownership of all companies with profits distributed equally according to one's needs and wants, regardless of contribution to the common good?

Even Marx realized in his later writings it was an impossible system.
 

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Just to punctuate the point...

I made this comment in response to another post in this thread, but it bears repeating if only for consideration regarding the socialisim of just about ANYTHING but ESPECIALLY healthcare...

The difference is we currently have a system where if you WANT to spend a lot of money to save YOURSELF then you can. If you don't, you don't have to spend a cent. And that is the way it SHOULD be. Because once government has taken away your ability to save YOURSELF---how hard will you work to save someone else?

Think about it...
 

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I wasn't trying to defend communism. It doesn't work. I never said it did. I know cuba was much better in 1958 then it is now. That is a fact and there is little that can be debated. What I said was that the people in cuba can get health care regardless of their wealth, or lack there of. Unfortunately for them, the talent of their doctors is substandard so many come here if they can afford it. And usually the people who come here get the money from relatives working here. My point was that despite their many short comings, they can still manage to have a health care system that is more effective than other comparable countries. And with that system, they have lower infant mortality than we do, according to the CIA and the UN. There are worse than us in most respects but are slightly better in one respect.

And yes. I have been to the 3rd world several times. I know what it's like. And actually, Croatia does have to deal with illegal immigration because they are better than some other countries in the area. Although definitely not on the scale that we do. If the rest of the world loved our system, they would be using it. But they aren't and they save money and have greater access to quality care, at least in Western Europe. There is no arguing that we have the best doctors in the world. But we pay through the roof for them. Capitalistically, that makes sense. But it is my belief that high quality health care shouldn't be just for the rich. I'm not saying that we should help people who brought health woes on themselves but if someone poor has to get more complex treatment, they likely won't be able to get it here, yet someone in their position in western europe might be able to get the treatment. So sure, they will patch you up at the ER for free but you can forget about anything expensive or long term.

If the system is overhauled, you will still be able to pay for any care you want. That will be unchanged. Yes, there are people that can't be helped and people will always die. But when we have more people dying and we still pay more on average, that's not exactly the ideal situation.
 
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