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"If I misunderstood the need for return shipment then I apologize for that mistatement

But basically you still sent me a part the first time around that was misadvertised as a stroker crankshaft scraper. You didn't do the proper research before selling a part that was not suited for the stated application.That's a poor business practice in and of itself. Yes you offered to fix the problem, but it should have been at least close to being right for the application when you first sold the part.
When all was said and done I was able to adjust the part to within the 1mm limit you described and I only had to build up two of the areas with epoxy.

Also you keep missing the point that I have stated that crankshaft scrapers have been shown to work in some engines. However, it did not show any benefits in my particular engine.

If you have emails from individuals with L6 series engines who have seen track times improve or HP improve on a dyno after the addition of your crankscraper then please post those in this thread as a counter to my own experience."



The rod cutouts were moved outwards by 1/2 the stroke increase. There was no misadvertising there, sir. I did ask the person who lent me the blocks whether the counterweights were the same -- he thought they were.

We have probably over a thousand stroker patterns -- people ask for them all the time. That's not counting the innumerable aftermarket rod patterns. The pro shops I speak to acknowledge that adjusting scrapers is normal. They have made their own and know what's involved. Maybe after making thousands I know too?

My experience in pulling apart -- and measuring -- hundreds of different engines spanning 50 years and getting feedback on thousands of patterns is that there is a large amount of variance even amongst parts with the same part number.

Have you ever measured the swept path of eleven diesel stroker cranks from Nissan? Well, I measured eleven precision pressure cast sumps from Ford with the same part number spanning 5 years production. There were three distinct groups of casting gate dimensions. Similar results have come from measuring BMW components and Mopar parts. All these measurements interfered with scraper desgns.

I spoke with a gentleman from Cosworth Engineering about it and he related that pattern makers are often left to their best judgement as to how to set up molds within given parameters.

As to your particular engine:
Here is what I did to get any semblance of experimental method when measuring the scraper in the Metro. The G10 scraper has the same general design and attachment method as the L28. I left the scraper in place when I had the baseline dyno run. Immediately after -- the car still strapped on the dyno -- I went underneath and drained the oil into a container. I removed the oil pan and the scraper. I replaced the pan and poured the same oil back into the motor.

This took about 30 minutes total so the ambient weather conditions were the same. The gas was the same; the tires and tire pressure were the same; the oil filter was the same; the oil was the same; the plugs were the same; etc.

No butt dyno involved. All the things I mentioned above, and more, could easily affect your output by 2% to 3% and mask or enhance the increased output due to a scraper. They are called confounds.

So, how does your experimental technique and rigor compare?

As for other L28 owners, well, how about this: When I picked up the blocks the owner had a Nismo competition pan and showed it to me. Scrapers all over.
 
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I had to do a ton of modifying around the around the rod bolts so that was NOT anywhere near what you stated. Also I had to grind away to keep the sides of the counter weights from rubbing on the scraper aswell.

I run the L28 rods with the LD28 crank instead of the L24 rods and I told you so in my first email from ebay. I saved that email

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Dear sammi1228,

Hi ,I have an LD28 crank in my Datsun with the stock 280Z rods. I am interested in your crank scraper and wanted to know if you have one in stock and how soon it would be shipped out if I purchased it today and paid via paypal. Thanks,Norm(The 12 Sec Dual SU Dude)

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So you didn't bother accounting for the fact that a shorter rod would stick out more at the bottom and hit the scraper.

Like I said earlier stop attacking me for merely relaying my own experience and instead post emails from people that have experienced documented numerical gains from using your L6 series crankshaft scraper, Also I would like to know if it fit correctly the first time they installed it.

And I don't use BUtt Dynos. I use established track times from ten years of racing my car. I know if a product has helped or hurt my times merely by comparing my track times and equal ambient weather conditions as well as 60 ft times 330 ft times and 1/8 mile times.
 

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"I had to do a ton of modifying around the around the rod bolts so that was NOT anywhere near what you stated. Also I had to grind away to keep the sides of the counter weights from rubbing on the scraper aswell.

I run the L28 rods with the LD28 crank instead of the L24 rods and I told you so in my first email from ebay. I saved that email

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Dear sammi1228,

Hi ,I have an LD28 crank in my Datsun with the stock 280Z rods. I am interested in your crank scraper and wanted to know if you have one in stock and how soon it would be shipped out if I purchased it today and paid via paypal. Thanks,Norm(The 12 Sec Dual SU Dude)

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So you didn't bother accounting for the fact that a shorter rod would stick out more at the bottom and hit the scraper."

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Think for a moment about what you wrote.

You're subsuming that I would assume that people would use the L24 rods and that your use of L28 rods was unusual.

No. When I make stroker patterns for stock rods they are for the stock rod pushed out by half the stroke increase. That's what you got. It works out to be 2mm.

I do currently offer a service sending out CNC cut plastic templates to be modified and returned or scanned and the file emailed back. That is basically done at cost: $25.

___________________________________________________


"Like I said earlier stop attacking me for merely relaying my own experience and instead post emails from people that have experienced documented numerical gains from using your L6 series crankshaft scraper, Also I would like to know if it fit correctly the first time they installed it.

And I don't use BUtt Dynos. I use established track times from ten years of racing my car. I know if a product has helped or hurt my times merely by comparing my track times and equal ambient weather conditions as well as 60 ft times 330 ft times and 1/8 mile times."

___________________________________________________

Oh, so you ARE controlling for all those other variables? Yes, I know about the technique -- it involves scientifically changing one part at a time and then comparing track times back to back on the same day hopefully.

You are still the biggest confound -- subconsciously you may be running consistent times like a bracket racer regardless of parts change. Do you have datalogging?
 
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Kevin I am done arguing with you.
As I said I saw no increases.If you have facts to back up your claims on other L6 series engines then post them.
You will sell a lot more scrapers by showing statistical results of others who have benefited from your product than by merely continuing to attack one person who says he did not benefit.



Post Edited (Mar 19, 5:56pm)
 

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Norm wrote:

"Kevin I am done arguing with you.
As I said I saw no increases.If you have facts to back up your claims on other L6 series engines then post them.
You will sell a lot more scrapers by showing rstatistical results of others who have benefited from your product than by merely continuing to attack one person who says he did not benefit."

--------------------------------

I just got back from the airport and have a bit more time to write now.

It is difficult to do a core dump on you so I'll try to work around the edges.

I did the dyno testing on the 993cc three cylinder motor to answer and bracket the critics who said, "yeah, it works on V8s but not small four cylinder motors."

Then there were (and are) the people who say that it works on high revving engines but not under 4000 rpm. They should be relocated to a remote island with the former group to get their story straight.

As it stands now, that design of scraper is used by Dodge as OEM on the Viper V10 engine and I have results from a straight three. Oh yeah, I forgot -- that design is also cited by GM in a recent patent application. That all kinda means it is accepted as sound engineering and assumed background knowledge for specialists in the field.

Now to your engine, the Nissan straight six of about 35 years vintage.

The easiest thing to do and explain is that YOU need to do a within and between groups longitudinal analysis of the windage control design trends by professional automotive engineers, including those from Nissan.

Start with Nissan. There is nothing particularly special about the straight six versus the straight four. Look at the L-series as it has progressed and then look at the KA engines then the SR engines. More and more windage control including massive use of scrapers -- that covers about 35-40 years.

Look at the development of the straight four and six from BMW and Toyota that occurs in the same time period. Blocks completely redesigned to minimize windage. In windage terms, the L-series is back with the M20 and M30 and 5M and 6M of about 15 to 25 years ago. You need to examine the design details of the move into the M50 series engines and 2JZ series respectively. Things are even more advanced now but that's too much to absorb all at once.

You'll notice that I said YOU need to do the analysis. This technology is well proven -- I've simply done my homework -- a huge amount -- and you haven't. You need to explain why your engine deviates from and is exceptional to sound design practice for windage control. I understand that you don't think about windage control for most of your waking hours but I do and I take it very seriously.

Somehow you've constructed in your mind that it is my responsibility to explain why you don't see positive results. Frankly I don't have that sort of time. I have given you some possible problem areas with your experimental technique to think about.

Kind regards,

Kevin Johnson
Ishihara-Johnson Crank Scrapers
 
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Uh NO I didn't ask you to explain anything because I know it works IF it is designed properly.
What I asked you for was testimonials from actual people who used your product and had no difficulty with the installation.

Please provide those emails from actual L6 engine customers and then you should have no problems selling your product.
 

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"Like the apes on "2001" they all sit there scratching themselves and screeching at the occasional interloper that tries to show them how to make fire."

Far more important is how to build that raft to get off the island, I should think.

;-)
 

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I will waste a couple more minutes with this.

Norm wrote, "Uh NO I didn't ask you to explain anything because I know it works IF it is designed properly."

You know nothing of the kind, sir, I am sorry. It is a very easy thing to claim but to someone who does know yours is utterly transparent. If you personally check the clearances of the V10 Dodge scraper you will find it comes no closer than 2.5mm to the rotating assembly.

Let that be a starting point for your studies.
 

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Norm wrote, "Then why the did you tell me to place mine 1mm from the rotating assembly if 2.5mm is optimal for the Viper?"

Is it optimal for the Viper?

Are things like wide production tolerances more important than you imagined? Yet clearances less so? ?

Have you measured the swept paths of multiple Mopar crankshafts to determine this?

How does the clearance in the Viper scraper compare to that of other OEM scrapers from Mopar?

How does this relate to the clearances found with the OEM scrapers found in the Nissan SR20? Is it significant?

What about BMW?

What about Toyota?

What about GM?

How exactly does a crank scraper work?

Why is windage a complex problem in the technical/mathematical sense of that term?
 
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"Think for a moment about what you wrote.

You're subsuming that I would assume that people would use the L24 rods and that your use of L28 rods was unusual.

No. When I make stroker patterns for stock rods they are for the stock rod pushed out by half the stroke increase. That's what you got. It works out to be 2mm."



This statement above proves that YOU SIR know nothing about typical L6 stroker buildups as virtually NO ONE uses the L28 rods with the Maxima stroker crank.

Perhaps you should be the one that thinks before speaking.

And yes you egotistical jerk, I know scrapers do work because I have read articles in Car Craft and in Hot Rod magazine where they have dyno tested with crank scrapers and seen HP improvements. Why do you think I even bought your improperly designed product in the first place?

Just so you know you are coming off as a total Ass now to everyone with your recent responses.Keep up the good work



Post Edited (Mar 20, 11:28am)
 
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Also had you STUDIED a bit more perhaps you would have known that merely moving the **** bolt holes out still wouldn't have prevented the crankscraper from hitting on the rods, the counter weights, the sides of the counterweights and the raised casting ridges on the L6 main caps.

We wouldn't even be having this discussion had YOU STUDIED before selling an incorrectly designed product in the first place.



Post Edited (Mar 20, 11:30am)
 

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Yep

"As for other L28 owners, well, how about this: When I picked up the blocks the owner had a Nismo competition pan and showed it to me. Scrapers all over."

Yep, that's why I mentioned the product to JeffP (I own one, but haven't dynoed it simply because of my previous experience gives me confidence that it's beneficial to the mix, and that's good enough for me!) and I think JeffP chimed in above with his reasons for not using it at that time---he bought the Nissan Competition Pan, and then spent a wheelbarrow of money cutting the sump to fit the 280ZX chassis which the Comp Pan was never meant to fit!

For me, what I would recomend to him now that I have done more research on the oil pan subject pursuant to my Bonneville Project would be to have a local fabricator make him a baffled trapdoor pan (actually the guy I have in mind uses proprietary ball & venturi pickup doors) in conjunction with the Crank Scraper relieved as Kevin Mentioned in his response to JeffP's post.

I like the Teflon-Lined Scrapers A LOT---I think it's a very good idea, and easily adaptable.

But I digress...
 

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LOL

"Start with Nissan. There is nothing particularly special about the straight six versus the straight four. Look at the L-series as it has progressed and then look at the KA engines then the SR engines. More and more windage control including massive use of scrapers -- that covers about 35-40 years."

LOL! Kevin, are you my long lost-at-birth brother? The one I got sutck with growing up is so diametrically my polar opposite when it comes to clear thinking logical engineering analysis it's not funny.

Can I adpot you as my little brother? (or big-brother, not sure on your age!)

Points well advised to be taken under advisement, I am continually telling people "Look what the OEM did during developmental work". Those guys have millions of dollars in their R&D budgets, and Legion Accountants who will cut out every possible cost to maximize profit by minimizing construction costs. If they can leave something inside, not seen, off and save even 50 Cents: THEY WILL! To find these items in new engines where they were previously not there, it should speak volumes on their effectiveness!

This goes towards a feud I had with Steve 280Z regarding counterflow injection. I could not give specific examples of where I'd seen it, or why I said what I said---simply because I had signed non-disclosure statements with companies (Kevin mentions one in an earlier post) that prevented me from discussing items for a period of years. It was great when they themselves revealed the technology in a trade publication, as that unbound me from my silence.

But the point remained that there was still a commentary disparaging the technology even when the proof WAS presented.

This brings me full circle to one of my earlier posts... I will not repeat myself, counter to prior habit... LOL
 

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Re: Yep

Tony D, I talked to the fabricator that came up with those trap doors at the PRI show and he related some dyno experience with scrapers at the 9:00 position with a full side kickout design.

He did not see an increase there but that is understandable. The flow of air in the kickout prevents scavenged oil from easily flowing downwards into the pan. Instead it is driven back into the rotating assembly. A better scraper design there would be on the floor as you can see in the Ford FE pan and also the 944/968 pans from Porsche. A scraper design that works on the downstroke quadrant would also be helpful. Dodge installed one of those in the 95 Neon 2.0. If you need some pics send me an email. Hope that is useful info.
 

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Testimonial:

"What I asked you for was testimonials from actual people who used your product and had no difficulty with the installation."

O.K., here goes:

I bought one of the Ishihara-Johnson Crank Scrapers off E-Bay (BTW, this has been put up on this site BEFORE---probably the last time this subject came up!)

Having made scrapers MYSELF before FROM SCRATCH, my comments may be a bit biased, but I believe my last testimonial said: BUY IT BUY IT BUY IT BUY IT! LOADS easier than making your own, and the trimming required is minimal.

Now maybe I may be a jaded person to make that statement: I may be thinking in my head that my trimming was minimal, but I may be comparing it with my experience of making the whole thing from scratch.

In any case, I haven't dynoed it and probably never will because I know what it's function is, and the horsepower gained in my application isn't my primary concern. My primary concern is that oil pumped up to the rotating assembly is KEPT IN THE PAN as quickly as possible. And one major way to accomplish that is SCRAPE IT OFF THE ROTATING ASSSEMBLY!

To there you have it. An L-6 Owner with THIS PRODUCT who is happy with it, and who is satisfied with the results obtained after it's installation.

Will that do?
 

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Re: Yep

I am working on aftermarket windage control for the 2ZZ at present. It is amazing to look at the engineering present, particularly in bays 3&4. Tuned expansion chambers no less and isolation of bays 1-2 from 3-4. Some similarity of other design details to the World engine. You can also see the SR20 in there. It is very clear that the companies keep close track of one-another's progress.

Had to laugh when I looked at the casting in the World 2.2/2.4 combo oil pump and balance shafts (1.8 lacks them) -- had an explicit statement that the design was patented. That's pretty blunt but I guess you have to be with all those waiting CMMs out there. ;-)

BTW, Toysport lent me the 2ZZ block and related that they have been making scrapers for the competition engines for, what, 25 years now?



Post Edited (Mar 20, 7:57pm)
 
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