another hour wasted...

652 Views 25 Replies 8 Participants Last post by Tony D, Nov 4, 2004

Tony D

Discussion Starter · Nov 1, 2004

fighting with the MS-n-S again after a few month hiatus.
Changed out the gas in the beast...don't think new stuff lasts more than 5 months. This stuff was fresh 91 octane in May, and in a sealed gas tank turned brown and stale by November...

So with fresh gas, got it fired and working somewhat. Nowhere near how it was running before the turbo burned up, and no revs beyond a bare minimum idle.

So I let it accumulate some runtime while I poked and prodded and checked stuff while the sun went down.

It's been what now? Two years and still no go to drive.

I can't figure out how it's not running like it was before the turbo meltdown. Didn't change anything but the turbo and the oil pan. The damned thing should start and run like it did before.

Looks like the first two injectors are sticking, as I get no noticable rpm drop with a power balance test. This is pi$$ing me off. It would be nice to actually drive a car that is just a shade abouve a POS after putting so much time into something that should not be this hard.

And to reiterate to thoseof you how swore it could NOT be the operating system and the way it works with the Com Port: I migrated the files to my Dell, and used a Taiwan Cheapo USB to Serial adapter, and NO MORE TACH INSTABILITY.

So check you computer and operating system with anotheron if you are having persistent tach spikes. I don't have them any more. I wish this solution would have presented itself before I wasted 3 months listening to the "experts" fixing all the things that were "WRONG" with the circuit...all to no avail. And that box eventually failed. So now I'm down to two. If these fail before it gets on the road, I will have a pile of electronics to sell, and will buy a real control box. Time is getting to be worth far more to me than gee-whiz I-did-it-myself kinds of gratification. There is a lot to be said for things that work out of the box, with proper support...

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matt300zxt

· #2 · Nov 1, 2004

Ahh Tony, your first problem is you're using a Dell. Anyone who wants a good computer KNOWS they either need to have it custom built. Dell sucks, Gateway sucks, Compaq sucks...they use subpar parts to make their computers so cheap. There's a reason they don't use AMD...cuz they whoop the **** outta Pentium, and they'd make no money if they had to charge more for a real quality part lol

Anyways, all you changed was the turbo and it runs like **** now? I bet MS would hate to have you for a spokesman, you're really making me think of whether or not I want MS n S to run my turbo car.

Tony D

Discussion Starter · #3 · Nov 1, 2004

uh...

the SONY was the one causing the problems. The Dell works fine, as did JeffP's Toshiba.

Be aware of the possibilities. I see others ask the questions on the MSEFI Forums recently that I asked on the old yahoo list back in May...

But thearchives don't transpose tothe new site, so knowledge is lost.
There were those who said there was no way it would have that effect.

But like many in theory---practial application proved it wrong.

So be aware there is that possibility.

I am a good spokesman for MS. It's just frustrating to work on something for two years and keep going backwards.

I don't ned that kind of sh*t anymore. I have given it enough time. If something doesn't present itself soon to remedy the situation, I will most likely just buy Lance's system, and go with that. And be done with "developmental problems".

****, Moby got his running, and I did it to confirm the 81CAS was compatible. It is. Problem was, my COMPUTER was NOT, and nobody in the establishment seems willing to concede that is a valid failure mode, so others will suffer the same fate. Needlessly.

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matt300zxt

· #4 · Nov 1, 2004

What's Lance's system? I can get a good laptop since my buddy owns a computer shop...I just want the most hassle free setup for my car. I guess I woudln't mind running a seperate ignition system, like a Crane or something (was browsing through an old Vicky Brit while on the crapper) if the MS n S is really that much of a pain in the ass.

Tony D

Discussion Starter · #5 · Nov 1, 2004

it's not really...

IF YOU GET SUPPORT!

Manny have simply followed Moby's sticky at Hybrid Z and fired up and drove off.

Mine was the exception to the rule. DUE TO MY COMPUTER.

What frustrates me is that the "experts" discount the conclusions I made in May, and now I have determined it positively!

If I had known it was my computer when I FIRST installed it, instead of spending three+ months of installin filter circuitry, running grounds, and finally probing with an O-Scope showing all my inputs were scrupulously clean..... Well, I would have most likely had it running for MSA or the Convention...

Instead I'm heading into the third rainy season with a non-running car, at a point where I should have been at this time LAST YEAR!

The point of the post was not to bash the MS system, it was to WARN PEOPLE that the com-port on some computers MAY be the problem, and if you are unsure as to how to proceed, MY suggestion would be to CHECK IT WITH ANOTHER BRAND OF COMPUTER FIRST! BEFORE you go spend three+ months building filter circuits, etc etc etc....

Lance's system is about $2800. So you decide. It's in the Archives. So, yes, that's how far/pi$$ed off I have become.

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steves280

· #6 · Nov 1, 2004

Why I like SDS, Re: another hour wasted...

Ahh Tony, your first problem is you're using a Dell. Anyone who wants a good computer KNOWS they either need to have it custom built.
------------

So you build your own laptops?

And Tony this is why I'm such a big fan of SDS, the stuff is simple. No computer weirdness interface issues (or depending on a Microsoft OS for tuning my car!) and it's bullet proof reliable. It comes with all the harnesses premade and the system is ready to plug and go. I like the SDS 6D and use a NA dizzy with either a MSD 6AL for a NA car or a MSD 6BTM for a turbo. No crank trigger BS to deal with and again the MSD ignition stuff is bullet proof reliable.

Every install I've done has taken less than a day from start to finish and with some careful reading of the sample fuel maps and a couple of test drives, you can have it tuned 90% perfect in about an hour. No laptop to haul around or boot up if you want to tweak on it etc etc.

BTW I hate microsofts products, have been using linux only for over 5 years so anything that HAS to use windows to work, I'm not really interested in supporting or using. I know MS has a seperate controller avalible but when you start adding all this stuff up, you aren't paying much more for SDS and with it, you actually have someone who will give you support for the product!

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materchan

· #7 · Nov 1, 2004

yeah com ports are a very common problem and they can be bad on a motherboard, but the comp works fine so youll never know that theres a problem

280zxreigns

· #8 · Nov 1, 2004

Wow after all that time it was the PC, i wouldn't be able to control the rage.

I actually got my MS ECU today, cost me 250 USD assembled with a few upgraded bits n pieces.

I would love any links you guys could post on a good explaination of MSnS i have searched the MS forums and checked the Yahoo groups....

Mat.

blue

· #9 · Nov 1, 2004

LOL Megasquirt seems a funny name if your first two injectors are sticking open... it is doing it's job.

When the Turbo melted, did any thing on the compressor side enter the chambers?

Tony D

Discussion Starter · #10 · Nov 1, 2004

I have SDS on a car now...

It's an older 3M ecu, that someone else didn't like.
Other than the possibility of toasting it from an incorrect sensor hookup, and not having O2 correction I guess it's O.K.

For the money, though....

But like I said, the problem apparently was not in the BOX, but in the way the Vaio Laptop handled the Com port. THAT is what wasted the time. I knew better, I should have used JeffP's computer earlier, that would have gotten it in running shape before summer came. As it was, it ended up taking all summer to do work outside the country, and I'm just now returning to it.

I will say, on the ORIGINAL FUEL ONLY MS install I did to make sure it all worked BEFORE doing an upgrade to the software, I WAS driving it within 15 minutes from initial fire off.

But that was on another laptop, that I did initiial setup for the fuel only control. So it DID work as a simple fuel-only control. It was after I saw that it COULD control spark AND fuel at the same time roughly equivalent to the Stock ECU that I got greedy, and started doing fancy things.

Standalon EFI is pretty much a waste of time if you are not controlling spark at the same time. I mean, what's the point? Y2K fuel control, and 1956 spark control? Doesn't make any sense to me---all or nothing!

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Tony D

Discussion Starter · #11 · Nov 1, 2004

they are sticking closed...

then again it may be fuel pressure. It's a "test pump" I have installed, and it's not sounding healthy at all. I have to test the output---it may have geon bad.

No, when the turbo melted down, it was due to the com port thing giving 20K+ rpm indications, kicking in the full retard of the soft limiter. I was so pi$$ed at the time, I just kept on mapping, with my foot to the floor to get a fuel curve at full boost.

Did you know a stock T3 will bet full 15# of boost at 1000rpm? You can if the timing is retarded enough! But it tends to make things glow red hot, then trashthemselves.

The compressor side had a mild rub, but the turbine end and bearing went away. Nothing in through the intake...

FlipFlop

· #12 · Nov 1, 2004

Will you be upgrading your turbo?

steves280

· #13 · Nov 2, 2004

Re: I have SDS on a car now...

Standalon EFI is pretty much a waste of time if you are not controlling spark at the same time. I mean, what's the point? Y2K fuel control, and 1956 spark control? Doesn't make any sense to me---all or nothing!

-----------------

Well we disagree on that point. Dealing with a timing curve mechanically (and maybe an analog boost retard box) is pretty simple to deal with. On a NA car once the motor is at 2500, the advance is at 35 degree to redline. Throw on a vacuum advance and it does anything a computer controlled version does. The fuel curve on the other hand is a different story and a stand alone EFI compared to any other alternative is light years better, far from "a waste of time".

Bernard

· #14 · Nov 2, 2004

Tony, rip that MSnS out and throw a z31 ecu in there. No problems with anything. Easy to tune. (Jeffp's kinda been thru it) Stick a bigger maf in there and that's it. Fun Fun.
Bernard

Tony D

Discussion Starter · #15 · Nov 2, 2004

"Spark Scatter"

For the street, when you actually pay for a REAL rebuilt and overhausled distributor ($450) with a proper curve, I could go that far with you.

But on anything that revs above 6500, the inaccuracy of the distributor and the scatter in when it ignites makes for things that go boom rather quickly.

I would bet most of the people with ping problems on 10:1 engines are due to timing variations caused by loose bushings, etc etc etc...

Anyway, for most people they totally ignore the ignition aspect of the buildup. And they pay the price in mystery miseries that plague them.

While a nice analog cannister on the dizzy (I have had on on my Corvair for...uh... well lets just say "a long time") makes for simplicity, there is no way to adjust for any changes without expensive "trial and error".

My biggest love of standalone is the ability to try something WITHOUT having to pay a guy another $150 for a recurve and test on that race dizzy.

It was actually a prime reason we went with the TEC2 on the LSR car, and we USED that feature when going after a power dip in the 4000-6200 range. Put in some advance, take some out, put in some fuel, take some out. Play with the cam, repeat. Did about 15 pulls in two hours. Not something easily accomplished with a conventional dizzy and advance weights.

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Tony D

Discussion Starter · #16 · Nov 2, 2004

Someone has been at me for that, Bernard!

Yeah, I have heard that song for a while now, eversince a special person got a ROM-u-Lator, and some programming under his belt!

Then again, like him, I have this damnable stubborn streak that says "this is how I started, and I want to find out what this system will do!

So even though another system is available, and I know it will work, that damnable stubborn streak that says "this freakin' thing will NOT beat me!" keeps me pluggin along till it does what I thought it should in the first place.

At least I'm not figuring out how to hack 4" diameter holes in my firewall to fit an "upgraded" Ford MAF.....

LOL

Post Edited (Nov 2, 9:29am)

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Bernard

· #17 · Nov 2, 2004

I can totally understand that. That's what got me going on the z31 ecu. Well that and JWT's attitude (which you've probably heard about as well). I need to get a hold of Jeff one of these day's when he's not busy and see how he's making out.

matt300zxt

· #18 · Nov 2, 2004

Hey there's an IBM Thinkpad on Ebay set up for Megasquirt, with the latest program goin for $249. Doesn't sound like a bad deal maybe?

steves280

· #19 · Nov 3, 2004

$450 for a distributor? And while slightly loose bushing will affect a points dizzy, it has very little effect on an electronic one. That being the case, how is the CAS type any better than an mag pickup one? A crank trigger type is better, just more work.
===

Anyway, for most people they totally ignore the ignition aspect of the buildup.

===
So somehow they are now going to focus on it if they have an electronic controlled one? Most people ignore tuning altogether, it's all about buying JE pistons and a T3/T4 turbo etc.

The Z31/ZXT setup is a POS IMHO since it has no map sensor and has to assume ignition advance by what the MAS is reading. If you've ever driven a Z31 setup vs a stand alone on the street, you'd NEVER use a Z31 setup again unless you were being cheap. They can make good WOT numbers but the drivability sucks compared to a well setup stand alone system that has a real boost sensitive retard. Plus the inability to tune it yourself is another big negative. I guess if someone has zero tuning skills it's OK?

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matt300zxt

· #20 · Nov 3, 2004

I'm not looking forward to learning and dealing with the tuning of my Z, but I am going to run standalone. Whether I choose MS or SDS, it's just one of those ugly things you have to deal with in order to have one of the most bad ass street cars in town. I thought about the Z31 ECU a looooong time ago, but then someone mentioned you have to send it back to JWT or whoever does it every time you want something changed in it. It's kinda like you pick a set up you want, then it's set in stone. You can't change it from day to day to run whether you're wanting to race it on Wedensday, but drive it on a trip to your grandmother's house on Thursday and need better fuel economy.

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