ZCar Forum banner

Status
Not open for further replies.
1 - 11 of 11 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
529 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
V8 Stuff

I have a friend who built a 510 w/a VG30 topped w/an Eaton blower. But, if you want to go w/a SBChevy here's the site:

jagsthatrun.com

They have a very good kit for installing a SBChevy in your 240,260,280Z. They also have installation manuals, tech books, and all the info you'll need.

BTW, if you want to play, you've got to pay.
Speed costs money, how fast do ya wanna go?
etc.,etc.,etc.

My friend says that a project car is a hole in the asphalt he throws money into.
I hope you have a lot of money, because it sounds like you're staring at a very big hole.

Please don't take offense to my jests, I'm just jealous.

Good Luck!!!

Ian

> I posted a while ago about a
> VG30+supercharger in a Z. I came to the
> conclusion that would be somewhat over my
> budget and although original, there's no
> readily available info on doing it, so....
> I've been talking to a friend of mine who is
> a great fan of V8s, basically what I'm after
> is about 300-350hp, with a nice high
> Ferrari-esque whine/roar behind it, I'd also
> like the power to be such that I'm not
> afraid to touch the accelerator for fear of
> smoking up the back wheels or breaking my
> neck(305mm wide would be nice, and yes, I
> know 300hp is a lot, I'd just like control).
> To achieve this I'm thinking 350SB Chev V8,
> with a 402 crankshaft, and sidedraft triple
> webers. So, naturally I've got a few
> questions....

> Where can I get that JTR manual that has
> info on putting V8s into Z's? How much info
> does it have?

> Is it possible to buy all the bits and
> pieces to put the 350 in(i.e. engine mounts
> and such)? If so, roughly how much would
> they cost(or does the manual detail their
> construction?), and with the manual, these
> parts, and a decently appointed garage(hoist
> and such) would I be able to do it on my own
> with a bit of help from a couple people who
> know a bit? I'm talking about cutting back
> on labor costs without having something
> that'll fall out onto the road(I'm going to
> do the whole clutch, differential,
> Manual/Auto shifter, structure strength
> thing first though) I'm just talking about
> the engine staying in the bay and staying in
> contact with the drivetrain. In short, can I
> do it myself?

> Also, my V8 friend is quite sure that any
> manual gearbox that'll survive upwards of
> 300hp(V8=torque) with big tires(i.e. not
> much give, although I'll still be able to
> lose traction) is going to cost big bucks, I
> like the control of picking gears, but I
> don't like the idea of feeding my car
> gearboxes so I'm basically thinking of an
> auto that's basically just 4 or 5 gears
> minus a clutch(Hurst shifter I think it's
> called), is this the way to go?

> That's basically it, could anyone give me a
> ballpark figure for getting the V8 in there
> to begin with, and then to get the sidedraft
> webbers on it + 402 crank, and flat-top
> pistons. Eventually I'd like to get it
> injected, anyone want to give me a scary
> figure for that? I already know the figure
> for supercharging(EFI+supercharger=simply
> stupid power apparently) and although the
> power is attractive, I don't think I want
> chrome sticking out of my bonnet, attracting
> police(who'd probably just pull me over to
> look at my cool car but hey, I'd also be the
> first target for a speeding ticket out of a
> pack).

> I'm pretty much settled on getting a V8 in
> there because it's been done, and I don't
> think I'm ready to be transplanting
> engines(VG30) that haven't been documented
> when I've never done AN engine transplant,
> and also because of a thread in here that
> said a SB Chev is about the same weight as
> the stock engine(possibly lighter) and you
> can place it further inside the
> wheelbase(handling).

> Project#2501 I am unable to write a
> short post
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
107,695 Posts
Thankyou

> I have a friend who built a 510 w/a VG30
> topped w/an Eaton blower. But, if you want
> to go w/a SBChevy here's the site:

At some point in the future I would really love to supercharge a Japanese engine, but I know basically nothing right now so I think my project would be doomed.

> jagsthatrun.com

> They have a very good kit for installing a
> SBChevy in your 240,260,280Z. They also have
> installation manuals, tech books, and all
> the info you'll need.

Thankyou very much.

> BTW, if you want to play, you've got to pay.
> Speed costs money, how fast do ya wanna go?
> etc.,etc.,etc.

Not TOO fast I just wanna get there VERY quickly. Though I can wait for the engine.

> My friend says that a project car is a hole
> in the asphalt he throws money into.
> I hope you have a lot of money, because it
> sounds like you're staring at a very big
> hole.

Well, I don't have a great deal of money, but, laugh if you want, I'm 17(starting early) and I have no living costs, so all the money I make is going straight into the car, and I'm getting two jobs over summer(right now, I live in Aus.).

> Please don't take offense to my jests, I'm
> just jealous.

Well, not right now, but I hope you'll have a reason to be jealous in about 2 years(when it's all 'just right'), I'll be back then, and probably many times in between to iron out other stuff I do.

> Good Luck!!!

I'll need it.

Project#2501
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
107,695 Posts
Just follow the Jags That Jun Book And you will have know problem doing it yourself
It is very clear and easy to understand.
Good luck and have fun
Zya8ter

> I posted a while ago about a
> VG30+supercharger in a Z. I came to the
> conclusion that would be somewhat over my
> budget and although original, there's no
> readily available info on doing it, so....
> I've been talking to a friend of mine who is
> a great fan of V8s, basically what I'm after
> is about 300-350hp, with a nice high
> Ferrari-esque whine/roar behind it, I'd also
> like the power to be such that I'm not
> afraid to touch the accelerator for fear of
> smoking up the back wheels or breaking my
> neck(305mm wide would be nice, and yes, I
> know 300hp is a lot, I'd just like control).
> To achieve this I'm thinking 350SB Chev V8,
> with a 402 crankshaft, and sidedraft triple
> webers. So, naturally I've got a few
> questions....

> Where can I get that JTR manual that has
> info on putting V8s into Z's? How much info
> does it have?

> Is it possible to buy all the bits and
> pieces to put the 350 in(i.e. engine mounts
> and such)? If so, roughly how much would
> they cost(or does the manual detail their
> construction?), and with the manual, these
> parts, and a decently appointed garage(hoist
> and such) would I be able to do it on my own
> with a bit of help from a couple people who
> know a bit? I'm talking about cutting back
> on labor costs without having something
> that'll fall out onto the road(I'm going to
> do the whole clutch, differential,
> Manual/Auto shifter, structure strength
> thing first though) I'm just talking about
> the engine staying in the bay and staying in
> contact with the drivetrain. In short, can I
> do it myself?

> Also, my V8 friend is quite sure that any
> manual gearbox that'll survive upwards of
> 300hp(V8=torque) with big tires(i.e. not
> much give, although I'll still be able to
> lose traction) is going to cost big bucks, I
> like the control of picking gears, but I
> don't like the idea of feeding my car
> gearboxes so I'm basically thinking of an
> auto that's basically just 4 or 5 gears
> minus a clutch(Hurst shifter I think it's
> called), is this the way to go?

> That's basically it, could anyone give me a
> ballpark figure for getting the V8 in there
> to begin with, and then to get the sidedraft
> webbers on it + 402 crank, and flat-top
> pistons. Eventually I'd like to get it
> injected, anyone want to give me a scary
> figure for that? I already know the figure
> for supercharging(EFI+supercharger=simply
> stupid power apparently) and although the
> power is attractive, I don't think I want
> chrome sticking out of my bonnet, attracting
> police(who'd probably just pull me over to
> look at my cool car but hey, I'd also be the
> first target for a speeding ticket out of a
> pack).

> I'm pretty much settled on getting a V8 in
> there because it's been done, and I don't
> think I'm ready to be transplanting
> engines(VG30) that haven't been documented
> when I've never done AN engine transplant,
> and also because of a thread in here that
> said a SB Chev is about the same weight as
> the stock engine(possibly lighter) and you
> can place it further inside the
> wheelbase(handling).

> Project#2501 I am unable to write a
> short post
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
306 Posts
Some thoughts...

> I posted a while ago about a
> VG30+supercharger in a Z. I came to the
> conclusion that would be somewhat over my
> budget and although original, there's no
> readily available info on doing it, so....
> I've been talking to a friend of mine who is
> a great fan of V8s, basically what I'm after
> is about 300-350hp, with a nice high
> Ferrari-esque whine/roar behind it, I'd also
> like the power to be such that I'm not
> afraid to touch the accelerator for fear of
> smoking up the back wheels or breaking my
> neck(305mm wide would be nice, and yes, I
> know 300hp is a lot, I'd just like control).

> To achieve this I'm thinking 350SB Chev V8,
> with a 402 crankshaft, and sidedraft triple
> webers. So, naturally I've got a few
> questions....

I'm confused by the above statement. There isn't such a thing as a 402 crankshaft for a small block Chevrolet. Perhaps you are thinking about a 400 crank, i.e., a 3.75 inch stroke?
Multiple carburation on a V8 doesn't make sense. I have never heard of putting 3 sidedraft Webers on a V8 and I know of no manufacturer that makes an intake system for this setup. The last statement is significant. Even if you could find an intake for your 3 Weber setup, it's unlikely to work as well as a current dual plane intake manifold design (e.g. an Edelbrock performer).

> Where can I get that JTR manual that has
> info on putting V8s into Z's? How much info
> does it have?

www.jagsthatrun.com
It's a great book!

> Is it possible to buy all the bits and
> pieces to put the 350 in(i.e. engine mounts
> and such)? If so, roughly how much would
> they cost(or does the manual detail their
> construction?), and with the manual, these
> parts, and a decently appointed garage(hoist
> and such) would I be able to do it on my own
> with a bit of help from a couple people who
> know a bit? I'm talking about cutting back
> on labor costs without having something
> that'll fall out onto the road(I'm going to
> do the whole clutch, differential,
> Manual/Auto shifter, structure strength
> thing first though) I'm just talking about
> the engine staying in the bay and staying in
> contact with the drivetrain. In short, can I
> do it myself?

I think an honest answer is that you are in way over your head on this; however, if you want to learn a lot, are not in a hurry, and view the experience as fun, it can be done and it would be a great way to learn about cars. OTOH, you will makes lots of mistakes and experience lots of frustration, anger, self-doubt before getting it finished. I did more or less the same thing with my first car and it took over a year to get running.

Before undertaking this project, I recommend you read Zen and the Art of Motocycle Maintenance by Robert Pirsig. If you take one piece of advice from this post, let this recommendation be it.

> Also, my V8 friend is quite sure that any
> manual gearbox that'll survive upwards of
> 300hp(V8=torque) with big tires(i.e. not
> much give, although I'll still be able to
> lose traction) is going to cost big bucks, I
> like the control of picking gears, but I
> don't like the idea of feeding my car
> gearboxes so I'm basically thinking of an
> auto that's basically just 4 or 5 gears
> minus a clutch(Hurst shifter I think it's
> called), is this the way to go?

Get a T-56 6 Speed out of a late model Camaro - they are designed to go behind V-8's, they are silky smooth and have a 0.5 final drive ratio. This is the absolute best transmission for this project. You can buy them new for $2000, in a wrecking yard for say $1300 with flywheel, clutch, bellhousing.
.
> That's basically it, could anyone give me a
> ballpark figure for getting the V8 in there
> to begin with, and then to get the sidedraft
> webbers on it + 402 crank, and flat-top
> pistons. Eventually I'd like to get it
> injected, anyone want to give me a scary
> figure for that? I already know the figure
> for supercharging(EFI+supercharger=simply
> stupid power apparently) and although the
> power is attractive, I don't think I want
> chrome sticking out of my bonnet, attracting
> police(who'd probably just pull me over to
> look at my cool car but hey, I'd also be the
> first target for a speeding ticket out of a
> pack).

I'd personally give up on this idea of a 400 sic(402). No derision intended, but engine building is an expensive place to start working on cars. Moreover, a 383 or
400 will tolerate a lot less over-revving than a 350 because of the shorter rod to stroke ratio.

I'd stick with a crate engine - say a ZZ-4 from GM performance. They put out 355 HP (out of the crate) and if you want, you can bump that number up to 400 HP or so. They run about $3000 - $3500. If you are on a tight budget, you can get a univeral replacement 350 (lower horspower) for $1299.

EFI will set you back another $2000 to $3000. The engine will not make much more peak horsepower, but it will produce lots of torque over a broader range of RPMs.

I really like the Holley 650 cfm double pumper on 350's. The gas milage sucks if you put your foot into it a lot, but run they great and are easy to tune.

> I'm pretty much settled on getting a V8 in
> there because it's been done, and I don't
> think I'm ready to be transplanting
> engines(VG30) that haven't been documented
> when I've never done AN engine transplant,
> and also because of a thread in here that
> said a SB Chev is about the same weight as
> the stock engine(possibly lighter) and you
> can place it further inside the
> wheelbase(handling).

> Project#2501 I am unable to write a
> short post

Good luck,
Bob
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
863 Posts
The intake your talking about uses four down draft webbers. I've seen what these intakes can do on the dynos. Put it this way the power gains over a 750 holley were insane, but the cost for this intake, 4 Webber carbs, air horns, etc. is completely insane.
The guy that questioned the 402 crank must not know Chevy, there is a chevy SB 402 and BB 402.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
306 Posts
> The intake your talking about uses four down
> draft webbers. I've seen what these intakes
> can do on the dynos. Put it this way the
> power gains over a 750 holley were insane,
> but the cost for this intake, 4 Webber
> carbs, air horns, etc. is completely insane.
> The guy that questioned the 402 crank must
> not know Chevy, there is a chevy SB 402 and
> BB 402.

Actually, I know Chevy quite well. Chevy NEVER made a 402 small block. My earlier statement was and remains correct. Despite his implied knowledge, Jeff is simply wrong on the issue of a SB 402.

Look it up.
<A HREF=http://www2.eos.net/twilliam/sbc.html>http://www2.eos.net/twilliam/sbc.html</A>

Maybe a 4 downdraft (not a 3 sidedraft) Weber system exists for the Chevy smallblock. It still strikes me as a singularly bad way to go. It will be difficult to tune and expensive.

John Lingenfelter, in his book On Modifying Small-Block Chevy Engines : High Performance Engine Building and Tuning for Street and Racing basically states that multiple carburation is a waste of time for the small block Chevy. I can get an exact quote if you'd like. I side with him on the matter of multiple carburation.

Jeff, I'd be interested in hearing about your dyno numbers and your experiences with multiple Webers.

Bob
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
833 Posts
> Actually, I know Chevy quite well. Chevy
> NEVER made a 402 small block. My earlier
> statement was and remains correct. Despite
> his implied knowledge, Jeff is simply wrong
> on the issue of a SB 402.

> Look it up.
> <A HREF=http://www2.eos.net/twilliam/sbc.html>http://www2.eos.net/twilliam/sbc.html</A>
> Maybe a 4 downdraft (not a 3 sidedraft)
> Weber system exists for the Chevy
> smallblock. It still strikes me as a
> singularly bad way to go. It will be
> difficult to tune and expensive.

> John Lingenfelter, in his book On
> Modifying Small-Block Chevy Engines : High
> Performance Engine Building and Tuning for
> Street and Racing basically states
> that multiple carburation is a waste of time
> for the small block Chevy. I can get an
> exact quote if you'd like. I side with him
> on the matter of multiple carburation.

> Jeff, I'd be interested in hearing about
> your dyno numbers and your experiences with
> multiple Webers.

> Bob

Ain't no such thing as a 402 small-block Chevy. This 402 small bolck crank is bullshit.

Frank
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
529 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
4 Weber DCOE's on a V8 is possible

I have seen an intake manifold for four sidedraft Webers on a small Chevy. It is manufactured by Inglese. I don't even know if they still exist. The picture I saw was in a book about Weber carbs. They had direct port nitrous hooked up to it as well. I agree that Webers on a V8 would be a waste of time and money. Even duel-quads on a V8 is a waste of time and money IMO. A single properly tuned 4bbl carb is the best setup for a V8. Except for fuel injection, of course. BTW, a 402 SBChevy does not exist from the factory, however, I'm sure it's possible to build one, although I can't think of a reason why. Where do you guys get your information, anyway?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
107,695 Posts
Re: 4 Weber DCOE's on a V8 is possible

402CID do exist, My father got one stock from the factory on a 1971 GMC truck.It was just a 396CID with a different crank. I guess it's also a personal matter and what the car is used for the the webber chev setup is one very nice setup. Saw one in Canada. It's throttle responce is fantastic and puts out a very nice dyno curve. It's great for setting up the engine with fine tuning that can't be done with any 4bbl and the closest 4bbl I've seen is the Gold Claw carb. (at 899.00 it should) but still the webbers can't be beat for carbs. It just takes experience with webber's and their many dedicated jets which let you tune it from idle up to the car's cam's limit. The major problem with Webbers is having the right set of tool's and a good ear for the engine. I love what the Mikuni's did for my 280Z.
Heck, stock Ferarri's, Lamb's, Porche and jag's came out with setups pretty much like these (used IDA's on the V/boxer 12cyl's) but the DCOE's still work great.
Dual quad's for street can be overkill if done wrong but using 2 390cfm's is a great setup, you get better fuel spread and responce with a good manifold. The manifold for the stock 426 Hemi dual's was something else, Tuned for lower end torque and massive power came out of those. The only bad stock multi carb setup was the Pontiac tri-power manifolds. They arn't that good. I'd like to see one set up with 3 webber IDA's though just to see what the change can do.

> I have seen an intake manifold for four
> sidedraft Webers on a small Chevy. It is
> manufactured by Inglese. I don't even know
> if they still exist. The picture I saw was
> in a book about Weber carbs. They had direct
> port nitrous hooked up to it as well. I
> agree that Webers on a V8 would be a waste
> of time and money. Even duel-quads on a V8
> is a waste of time and money IMO. A single
> properly tuned 4bbl carb is the best setup
> for a V8. Except for fuel injection, of
> course. BTW, a 402 SBChevy does not exist
> from the factory, however, I'm sure it's
> possible to build one, although I can't
> think of a reason why. Where do you guys get
> your information, anyway?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
306 Posts
Re: 4 Weber DCOE's on a V8 is possible

> 402CID do exist, My father got one stock
> from the factory on a 1971 GMC truck.It was
> just a 396CID with a different crank.

Wrong. A 402 big block uses the same 3.76 inch stroke crank as a 396. The bore is slightly larger, i.e., 4.125 v.s. 4.096 . Back to my earlier point, Chevy never produced a 402 ci smallblock.

Look it up.
<A HREF=http://www.mortec.com/borstrok.htm>http://www.mortec.com/borstrok.htm</A>

> I guess it's also a personal matter and what
> the car is used for the the webber chev
> setup is one very nice setup.

[snip]

The induction system serves two functions - to efficiently fill the cylinders using the momentum of the intake charge and to meter fuel. The first function depends on intake geometry, e.g. runner length and shape. This effects at what RPM an engine has good volumetric efficiency and thus torque.
Metering fuel is the next function. Some carburetors do a better job than others, especially at part throttle, Quadrajets, for example do pretty well. Sidedrafts Webers are pretty good (no experience with downdraft). EFI excels in this area. Sequential EFI systems with with closed loop O2 sensors can do a better job of metering fuel than any carbureted system.
4 Weber DCOE's on a V8 is possible; I guess the question is why. I don't buy that this multiple Weber induction system works appreciably better than a single 4 barrel. If it did, people would be using it. People don't. Again, I'd love to see dyno data.

With the carburetor and FI options available today, multiple carburetion on a V8 makes sense only to Luddites and people who value nostalgia more than they do performance or practicality.

Bob
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
56 Posts
> I have installed a 355 ci SB Chevy in my 76 280Z 2+2 using the JTR conversion manual. Wiring info could be more illuminating. Driveshaft to differential input flange is a must (from Stealth conversions, order form and price list in the back of JTR manual or at their web site). The rest you can fabricate or have fabricated for you (ie shortened driveshaft).
>
>
>
 
1 - 11 of 11 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top