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Thanks for the good info...more

> Don't worry, there is no offense taken. I
> understand that some poeplequestion the
> Horse power figures that I claim.

> As far as testing it. Yes, I had it on a
> water braked Dyno machine. I had 2 third
> gear blasts. I was going to do a third
> blast, but my clutch was not holding up. At
> about 4500rpm, the machine showed 225 horse.
> Since my engine pulls well past 5200rpm, we
> knew that I had engine left, if the clutch
> would stop slipping. So, with a little bit
> of figuring, 250 horsepower came up. We
> looked at the power band and how the car was
> reacting in the weather, and how the rpm
> were rising, and used these to determine max
> horse power. The dyno showed just over
> 2900lbs for my car. Eclipses with a guy and
> his girlfriend weigh about 3700 right? I
> know that they are at least 3400 dry curb
> weight, more if you add gas.

OK, so about 250hp, but it's still a calculation. Calculations are quite useful, I use them all the time at work, but in these kinds of scenarios, an exact answer can not be found. You need to find out if you're engine torque curve flattens out at 4500rpm or if it keeps increasing. If it flattens out, you may have 225hp, just from 4500-redline. Most Z cars tend to flatten out at high rpm, instead of increase, unless you have a wild cam.

250hp is a sort of barrier in a street Z engine. It becomes increasingly more difficult to manage and obtain more hp. Long duration/high lift cams are needed, and then notching the pistons and block is necessary. This is alot of expensive and delicate work, and is the reason it is so hard to get 300hp. Besides the powerband becomes too narrow for normal driving and gas mileage sucks.

And, in this case(250hp), if you raced a 300hp Eclipse, they would lose. The cars over here are HEAVILY modified and lightened, the street scene is totally insane. There are alot of Asian kids with their parents funding their projects, so they get all the newest and most expensive parts. These cars a very quick, believe me. There are alot of Hybrid Honda civic running turbocharged Integra and Prelude engines on the street. People tend to have alot of money to burn over here. Wish I was one of them. Running in 13's is common, and if you run in 14's you're almost laughed at.

> I don't belive anything that I read, or what
> a manufacter tells me, so you can throw that
> out. I trust only what my mechanic tells me
> and what the Dyno and drag strip show. If i
> waste a car by 5 car lengths, there is no
> hiding the fact that my car is faster, and I
> have no problem proving it to anyone with
> some money and a cocky attitude.

I believe stuff I read, it just depends on who wrote it, and why they wrote it. I believe your car is faster, but 5 car lenghts is ALOT. The driver must not have known how to drive.

> I have a very good relatiopnship with my
> mechanic, and he knows my car inside and
> out. So if he says it, it is true. No
> exceptions. The guy isn't going to lie to
> me, or tell me I have more horsepower than I
> do. He knows that I'll put the car on a Dyno
> machine and check his word.

> I have raced about 6 of these all wheel
> drive Eclipses, some of them stock, 2 of
> them heavily customized. The stock ones, I
> beat by about 6 cars. I'm sure it was 6
> cars, I have been racing for a while, and
> you get real good at counting car lengths.
> The 2 that were heavily customized, were
> closer. They came within about 3 car
> lengths. And your right, 1 second seems like
> a lot of time, but it isn't 6 car lengths. I
> beat these cars by multiple seconds.

Beating a RS or GS eclispe is no big deal, I could do that in my '87 535 BMW. Now beating a GS-X or GS-T by a couple seconds, that sounds more realistic. I'm glad that you beat them. Keep the Z's good name. I recently raced a '99 Carerra 2, and he pulled on me, but it was not overly outrageous, and I was able to keep up with him in the turns. This is why I love the Z, people pull away, but you can come back in a fury in the turns. Not many cars allow you to put so much pedal down in the turns. I love my Z. :)

> The next time I get the car on the Dyno,(Mid
> to late December, I'll be posting the slips
> on my homepage. I'll let everyone know when
> I do.

I look forward to it.

> Don't get me wrong, I don't want to seem
> like a jerk either, but. . .
> It is no secret that you can get 300 plus
> horsepower out of a N/A Z engine. The
> problem is putting on the streets. The 50
> horsepower between my 250 and the 300 makes
> a big diffrence. Like I've said before, it's
> hard to drive my car around on the streets.
> It's jerky on the throttle and reacts best
> at wide open throttle.(Like most cars!) I
> have a mild cam, but it idles great between
> 1000rpm and 1200rpm. The 300 horspower cars,
> have to fight for that last 50 to 75 horse.
> It's hard to get. It's like trying to get a
> 302 mustang over 375 horse. Yeah it can be
> done, but 350 is easier, and you don't have
> to spend an extra grand to get 25 more
> horses.

Well, I wouldn't exactly say it is no secret. There is alot of work that goes into making a 300hp N/A straight six. And yes, traction is the other problem, a limited slip is a must. The head design limited to two valves and a single cam is the main reason it is so hard. You just can't get enough air/fuel into the engine at extreme rpm. A local race shop, has a 2.8L ITS 240Z with a custom fuel injection manifold, a Corvette 60mm throttle body and runs TECII engine management. This car competes in ITS races and has won quite a few of them. However, the car has been dynoed and came up with 250ft/lb 275hp. Keep in mind this is a full on race car. I've seen the dyno sheet and know it is true. This car produced most of its power from 5000-7500rpm. This is why I question your claim. A stock manifold is extremely restrictive in the high rpm. Even with a wide mouth TB, I doubt the ability to surpass the hp and torque of a full race Z engine with custom engine management and injection manifold/tb.
And yes, the old addage is definetely true. Speed costs you money, how fast do you want to go?

> No offense was taken by you, but I stand
> firm by my claims. I have proof, on a
> machine, on the streets, and on the track.

> Get I get all of your questions answered? If
> not let me know, and I'll try again.

Ok, haven't totally convinced me, but I'm leaning in your direction. Maybe provide some specs, i.e. cam duration/lift, compression ratio, type of exhaust etc....I'm interested to see how you can get so much power on a somewhat streetable engine. My engine has almost the same hp, if not the same. (I haven't dynoed it yet, so my hp is still a guesstimate.) I'd be surprised if the stock fuel injection allows you to breath enough for that much hp. Most of these cars need triples to get that much air in the engine. Let's keep up the good discussion, this is actually somewhat fun.

Happy Z'ing,
240Dave
 

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Re: what kind of car did you say you have again?

> Wow! 6000 dollars! Considering I can buy a
> 91 300ZX in fairly good condition for around
> 8000, I'm thinking 300Z. That's only if I
> can sell my 280ZX for the right amount of
> money.
> Considering you paid someone for the work,
> my cost would be considerably less because I
> do the work myself. I don't have a turbo so
> I'm pretty confidant I can go over 8.6:1. I
> live in New England so snow is a problem. I
> love the looks of the 300ZX and I would be
> able to drive it in bad weahter without
> worrying about rust so much as I would with
> a 280ZX. If I did keep the 280, it'd
> probably be cheaper to put a turbo engine in
> it to obtain the power I want but I really
> do prefer instant throttle response. I guess
> non-turbo just feels funner.

> about those GSX's, I drove in a friend's 97
> GSX and to say the least, I wasn't that
> impressed.
> He revved it up to 5,500 rpm between each
> shift and we really weren't going that fast.
> Although that was with 3 college kids in the
> car.

> Just click on the link to go to the
> flywheel.
> Later, Antony

I'm sorry man, I lied to you. I was under theimpression that you had a turbo. That was the reason for the 8.6:1 compression ratio. Sorry, I made a mistake.

Yeah, i had about 2 grand woth of labor in the bill, and since you do the work yourself, you can bring your cost down. But remeber, my 6 grand, lets me spank every Z you can buy for 8 grand. The reason I went with a non turbo motor, is because I didn't want to have toi depend on some spool to creat 200 horse power, while running low compresion ratios. And my engine should last longer.

Good luck with the car search. Keep in touch, and feel free to e-mail me. Let me know how it turns out. You're a pretty groovey guy to shoot the breeze with. Then agin, I just love to talk! (I guess you know by now!)

Chris Behney
Redline Autosports
 

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Re: Thanks for the good info...more

> OK, so about 250hp, but it's still a
> calculation. Calculations are quite useful,
> I use them all the time at work, but in
> these kinds of scenarios, an exact answer
> can not be found. You need to find out if
> you're engine torque curve flattens out at
> 4500rpm or if it keeps increasing. If it
> flattens out, you may have 225hp, just from
> 4500-redline. Most Z cars tend to flatten
> out at high rpm, instead of increase, unless
> you have a wild cam.

> 250hp is a sort of barrier in a street Z
> engine. It becomes increasingly more
> difficult to manage and obtain more hp. Long
> duration/high lift cams are needed, and then
> notching the pistons and block is necessary.
> This is alot of expensive and delicate work,
> and is the reason it is so hard to get
> 300hp. Besides the powerband becomes too
> narrow for normal driving and gas mileage
> sucks.

> And, in this case(250hp), if you raced a
> 300hp Eclipse, they would lose. The cars
> over here are HEAVILY modified and
> lightened, the street scene is totally
> insane. There are alot of Asian kids with
> their parents funding their projects, so
> they get all the newest and most expensive
> parts. These cars a very quick, believe me.
> There are alot of Hybrid Honda civic running
> turbocharged Integra and Prelude engines on
> the street. People tend to have alot of
> money to burn over here. Wish I was one of
> them. Running in 13's is common, and if you
> run in 14's you're almost laughed at.

> I believe stuff I read, it just depends on
> who wrote it, and why they wrote it. I
> believe your car is faster, but 5 car
> lenghts is ALOT. The driver must not have
> known how to drive.

> Beating a RS or GS eclispe is no big deal, I
> could do that in my '87 535 BMW. Now beating
> a GS-X or GS-T by a couple seconds, that
> sounds more realistic. I'm glad that you
> beat them. Keep the Z's good name. I
> recently raced a '99 Carerra 2, and he
> pulled on me, but it was not overly
> outrageous, and I was able to keep up with
> him in the turns. This is why I love the Z,
> people pull away, but you can come back in a
> fury in the turns. Not many cars allow you
> to put so much pedal down in the turns. I
> love my Z. :)

> I look forward to it.

> Well, I wouldn't exactly say it is no
> secret. There is alot of work that goes into
> making a 300hp N/A straight six. And yes,
> traction is the other problem, a limited
> slip is a must. The head design limited to
> two valves and a single cam is the main
> reason it is so hard. You just can't get
> enough air/fuel into the engine at extreme
> rpm. A local race shop, has a 2.8L ITS 240Z
> with a custom fuel injection manifold, a
> Corvette 60mm throttle body and runs TECII
> engine management. This car competes in ITS
> races and has won quite a few of them.
> However, the car has been dynoed and came up
> with 250ft/lb 275hp. Keep in mind this is a
> full on race car. I've seen the dyno sheet
> and know it is true. This car produced most
> of its power from 5000-7500rpm. This is why
> I question your claim. A stock manifold is
> extremely restrictive in the high rpm. Even
> with a wide mouth TB, I doubt the ability to
> surpass the hp and torque of a full race Z
> engine with custom engine management and
> injection manifold/tb.
> And yes, the old addage is definetely true.
> Speed costs you money, how fast do you
> want to go?

> Ok, haven't totally convinced me, but I'm
> leaning in your direction. Maybe provide
> some specs, i.e. cam duration/lift,
> compression ratio, type of exhaust
> etc....I'm interested to see how you can get
> so much power on a somewhat streetable
> engine. My engine has almost the same hp, if
> not the same. (I haven't dynoed it yet, so
> my hp is still a guesstimate.) I'd be
> surprised if the stock fuel injection allows
> you to breath enough for that much hp. Most
> of these cars need triples to get that much
> air in the engine. Let's keep up the good
> discussion, this is actually somewhat fun.

> Happy Z'ing,
> 240Dave

I'd bet my life that my torque curve does not drop off or flatten out at 4500. Trust me, this car pulls in gear, way past the 5200 that I shift at. I put great faith in th calculation we made. I know, they are calculations, but they are numbers that are extreemly reasonable and prudent.

I deffintly agree with the fact that those lst 50 horse from 250 to 300 are the hard ones. I think it may have been you that I was talking to earlier that it's rough to get a 300 horse Z engine. It's another 1500 to 2000 dollars, and its hard to street the car. The cam realy screws up your idles and you can't get around town smoothly.

I raced a Type R ntegra about a month ago, and scraed the sh*t out of him. I got him by about 3 cars. He had a weight saving kit, and a combat kit, tubo and all of the goodies that the aftermarket can provide. We raced again, witha him using 100 shot of Nitrous and he got me by about 3 cars. Turbo love NOS.

My car busts the tires loose in the corners, so straight lines are the only place that I open it up. Curves scare me, BAD. There have been a couple of really close calls that set me straight.
Yes the STOCK fuels system makes it impossible to reach 250. Larger, (MUCH larger) fuels rails, high pressure fuel pump, and a huge porting job on the intake, and polishing, and all of the stuff I did, allow for the 250. I dump about 1/3 more fuel into the engine than a stock 280ZX, along with the air to match it. Like I told you, it's rough to street this car. I have to take it real easy around turns, and if i jump on it at every light I come to, the gas dissapears real fast. The tires spin on half the streets around here, through 2 gears and the bottom en of third anyway, so if i jump on it hard, I just bust 'em loose. The times I have, are from a set of M/H street-strip tires, on a 15 inch rim. Don't think I did I did those times on street tires. I had the help of some cheater slicks.

Like I told Antonio(?) in my other response, you're a groovey guy to talk to, and i love to talk, so keep in touch. If you have any questions, lay them on me.

I'll see if i can dig up some numbers for you on the cam duration and lift. I may have to call my mechanic. He's got a lot of my paper work on file.

Keep on keepin' on,

Chris Behney
Redline Autosports
 

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shootin the shi#t

yeah, man. I don't know, there's something lacking at this board lately. It seems all the usual contributors have left. Not too much interesting chat going on. That's why I like to keep these long posts going. Anything cars is awesome as it is. ****, I'm actually giving up my full scholarship to become a physical therapist so I can study mechanical engineering.
I think that if you worked on your car you'd appreciate it more. When I was in high school, replacing a water pump was more rewarding to me than getting A's on a report card.
I checked out your car on the redline home page.
Pretty cool club you got going there. Is there somewhere that I can take a look at that shogun kit you want for your Z? You also noted that you're going to get 2 drop Koni springs. If you've been reading the posts below about suspension and camber/caster adjustments, Dougy boy brought up how hard it is to correct the camber for a 2 drop. Are you prepared for this?
NEways, I'm out for now. Later
 

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Forgot to mention. 240dave also read this one.

> yeah, man. I don't know, there's something
> lacking at this board lately. It seems all
> the usual contributors have left. Not too
> much interesting chat going on. That's why I
> like to keep these long posts going.
> Anything cars is awesome as it is. ****, I'm
> actually giving up my full scholarship to
> become a physical therapist so I can study
> mechanical engineering.
> I think that if you worked on your car you'd
> appreciate it more. When I was in high
> school, replacing a water pump was more
> rewarding to me than getting A's on a report
> card.
> I checked out your car on the redline home
> page.
> Pretty cool club you got going there. Is
> there somewhere that I can take a look at
> that shogun kit you want for your Z? You
> also noted that you're going to get 2
> drop Koni springs. If you've been reading
> the posts below about suspension and
> camber/caster adjustments, Dougy boy brought
> up how hard it is to correct the camber for
> a 2 drop. Are you prepared for this?
> NEways, I'm out for now. Later

I talked to my mechanic real quick this morning, and he mentioned something that I have forgotten to tell you guys. It just slipped my mind, since I figured most people probally assumed it.

The displacement on my engine, is not the standard 2.8, it's 3.1. I'm in the process of faxing some paper work back and forth with him, so I should have some numbers late today. Not real sure about the whole process you do to the Z engine to raise it to 3.1, I'm more of a V-8 guy belive it or not.

I'll keep you posted on it. There is a guy who e-mailed me, that wants some advice on building his engine. He's got a L28 block with a n47 head, and I'm not real sure on the numbers for the older Z engines. All I know is what I've read, and I don't belive 90% of it anyway. If either one of you guys can help him out, I'd bet he'd appreciate it. Anythig will help, advice, internet address' or whatever.

Here's e-mail adress, just let him know that I sent you.
[email protected]

Chris Behney
Redline Autosports
 

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I think I'll get a V-8

I've read all the stuff discussed on this string and it has done a lot to help me make up my mind.
John's Cars in Dallas, TX is company that specializes in V-8 conversions for Jaguars and Z's. He will drop a NEW LT-1 V-8 and T700 tranny in my Z - along with new fuel pump, radiator, ECU, shortened drive shaft, etc. for a cool $9,900. 5.7 liters, 325 HP, torque out the behind, and a brand new engine and transmission with associated warrantees.
Get used to seeing my taillights.
Phantom
 

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I think I'll get a V-8

I've read all the stuff discussed on this string and it has done a lot to help me make up my mind.
John's Cars in Dallas, TX is company that specializes in V-8 conversions for Jaguars and Z's. He will drop a NEW LT-1 V-8 and T700 tranny in my Z - along with new fuel pump, radiator, ECU, shortened drive shaft, etc. for a cool $9,900. 5.7 liters, 325 HP, torque out the behind, and a brand new engine and transmission with associated warrantees.
Get used to seeing my taillights.
Phantom
 

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Phantom, say it isn't so!!

> I've read all the stuff discussed on this
> string and it has done a lot to help me make
> up my mind.
> John's Cars in Dallas, TX is company that
> specializes in V-8 conversions for Jaguars
> and Z's. He will drop a NEW LT-1 V-8 and
> T700 tranny in my Z - along with new fuel
> pump, radiator, ECU, shortened drive shaft,
> etc. for a cool $9,900. 5.7 liters, 325 HP,
> torque out the behind, and a brand new
> engine and transmission with associated
> warrantees.
> Get used to seeing my taillights.
> Phantom

No Phantom, say it isn't so!

I understand your point of view. A LT-1 is a montor.

BUT. . .
This is a Z we're talking about here! For the sake of your Z, don't do the V-8.

Good luck with your new engine. Keep me posted, and give me the chance to run ya, to defend all of us V6ers.

Chris Behney
Redline Autosports
 

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Re: Phantom, say it isn't so!!-correct spelling

> No Phantom, say it isn't so!

> I understand your point of view. A LT-1 is a
> monster.

> BUT. . .
> This is a Z we're talking about here! For
> the sake of your Z, don't do the V-8.

> Good luck with your new engine. Keep me
> posted, and give me the chance to run ya, to
> defend all of us inline-6ers.

> Chris Behney
> Redline Autosports
 

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Re: I think I'll get a V-8

> I've read all the stuff discussed on this
> string and it has done a lot to help me make
> up my mind.
> John's Cars in Dallas, TX is company that
> specializes in V-8 conversions for Jaguars
> and Z's. He will drop a NEW LT-1 V-8 and
> T700 tranny in my Z - along with new fuel
> pump, radiator, ECU, shortened drive shaft,
> etc. for a cool $9,900. 5.7 liters, 325 HP,
> torque out the behind, and a brand new
> engine and transmission with associated
> warrantees.
> Get used to seeing my taillights.
> Phantom
No, don't do it. These cars have enough trouble trying to stay Foreign as it is. The Z motor is a very powerfull and well balanced drive train. Not to mention the wide range of transmissions and rear ends availiable. If you can't get a good combination to smoke most American muscle, then I'll see you in SUPERCHEVY Magazine. Meanwhile, I will keep tearing those American muscles a new ass.
 

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Re: I think I'll get a V-8, Part II

The LT-1 is an aluminum block engine that weighs almost the same as the L28. It and the transmission mate into the car without having to chop up the body, the suspension or the drive train except for shortening the drive shaft a bit. It also develops over twice the horsepower and torque of the stock L28 and it does it without having to deal with turbo lag, twitchy throttles, rough idles, etc. that you see in high performance L28's. I have no doubt that I can build an L28 that will hang with the stock American Muscle cars. With the V-8, I can blow their doors off, hang with the souped up muscle cars, and still have the superior handling of the Z. I would also have an engine and transmission that will have spare parts readily available for the next Billion or so years at reasonable prices and at least that many repair shops that can work on it if it needs some attention. I have absolutely no plans to ever restore this car. The '77 was too high a production year and will never have the value of the early 240's. Someone give me a good, legitimate reason for me not to do this.
PS - My first new car was a '70 'Cuda with a 340 V-8. It's in the blood bro'.
Phantom
 

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If it's a 280, I say go ahead!

> The LT-1 is an aluminum block engine that
> weighs almost the same as the L28. It and
> the transmission mate into the car without
> having to chop up the body, the suspension
> or the drive train except for shortening the
> drive shaft a bit. It also develops over
> twice the horsepower and torque of the stock
> L28 and it does it without having to deal
> with turbo lag, twitchy throttles, rough
> idles, etc. that you see in high performance
> L28's. I have no doubt that I can build an
> L28 that will hang with the stock American
> Muscle cars. With the V-8, I can blow their
> doors off, hang with the souped up muscle
> cars, and still have the superior handling
> of the Z. I would also have an engine and
> transmission that will have spare parts
> readily available for the next Billion or so
> years at reasonable prices and at least that
> many repair shops that can work on it if it
> needs some attention. I have absolutely no
> plans to ever restore this car.
> The '77 was too high a production year and
> will never have the value of the early
> 240's. Someone give me a good, legitimate
> reason for me not to do this.
> PS - My first new car was a '70 'Cuda with a
> 340 V-8. It's in the blood bro'.
> Phantom

I've seen one at a local shop. It was a LT-1 with 6spd. Fit quite nicely, and the car had a full suspension with coil-over, polybushings etc....There was some bracing on the body and when I saw it they were making a custom strut brace. I went back to the shop several weeks later, and the owner said the car put out over 400hp and he could smoke the tires in third gear at 45mph!! It was alomst an entirely stock LT-1 with the exception of headers/custom exhuast and K&N air filters. It even had A/C! Probably capable of high 12's I would imagine, assuming he could hook up the rear tires. If I had a 280, this is what I'd do. Besides, you get 400hp and it's all LEGAL and much more RELIABLE than a 400hp Z engine (even turbo) and CHEAPER, since you don't really need many performance parts, heck you could leave it all stock and leave almost any car in your rear view. If you've got the means Phantom, go ahead, it's a sweet conversion, much better than a 350 or 5.0L.
 

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Still have the Cuda?

> The LT-1 is an aluminum block engine that
> weighs almost the same as the L28. It and
> the transmission mate into the car without
> having to chop up the body, the suspension
> or the drive train except for shortening the
> drive shaft a bit. It also develops over
> twice the horsepower and torque of the stock
> L28 and it does it without having to deal
> with turbo lag, twitchy throttles, rough
> idles, etc. that you see in high performance
> L28's. I have no doubt that I can build an
> L28 that will hang with the stock American
> Muscle cars. With the V-8, I can blow their
> doors off, hang with the souped up muscle
> cars, and still have the superior handling
> of the Z. I would also have an engine and
> transmission that will have spare parts
> readily available for the next Billion or so
> years at reasonable prices and at least that
> many repair shops that can work on it if it
> needs some attention. I have absolutely no
> plans to ever restore this car.
> The '77 was too high a production year and
> will never have the value of the early
> 240's. Someone give me a good, legitimate
> reason for me not to do this.
> PS - My first new car was a '70 'Cuda with a
> 340 V-8. It's in the blood bro'.
> Phantom
n/c
 

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Re: If it's a 280, I say go ahead!

> I've seen one at a local shop. It was a LT-1
> with 6spd. Fit quite nicely, and the car had
> a full suspension with coil-over,
> polybushings etc....There was some bracing
> on the body and when I saw it they were
> making a custom strut brace. I went back to
> the shop several weeks later, and the owner
> said the car put out over 400hp and he could
> smoke the tires in third gear at 45mph!! It
> was alomst an entirely stock LT-1 with the
> exception of headers/custom exhuast and K&N
> air filters. It even had A/C! Probably
> capable of high 12's I would imagine,
> assuming he could hook up the rear tires. If
> I had a 280, this is what I'd do. Besides,
> you get 400hp and it's all LEGAL and much
> more RELIABLE than a 400hp Z engine (even
> turbo) and CHEAPER, since you don't really
> need many performance parts, heck you could
> leave it all stock and leave almost any car
> in your rear view. If you've got the means
> Phantom, go ahead, it's a sweet conversion,
> much better than a 350 or 5.0L.

Thanks for the vote Dave. It will be a while due to the steep cost, though. - and yes it would go in a '77 280Z
Phantom
 
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