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post #31 of 40 (permalink) Old 03-20-2007, 11:57 AM
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Re: Crank Scrapers

Then why the did you tell me to place mine 1mm from the rotating assembly if 2.5mm is optimal for the Viper?


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post #32 of 40 (permalink) Old 03-20-2007, 12:33 PM
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Re: Crank Scrapers

Norm wrote, "Then why the did you tell me to place mine 1mm from the rotating assembly if 2.5mm is optimal for the Viper?"

Is it optimal for the Viper?

Are things like wide production tolerances more important than you imagined? Yet clearances less so? ?

Have you measured the swept paths of multiple Mopar crankshafts to determine this?

How does the clearance in the Viper scraper compare to that of other OEM scrapers from Mopar?

How does this relate to the clearances found with the OEM scrapers found in the Nissan SR20? Is it significant?

What about BMW?

What about Toyota?

What about GM?

How exactly does a crank scraper work?

Why is windage a complex problem in the technical/mathematical sense of that term?
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post #33 of 40 (permalink) Old 03-20-2007, 01:19 PM
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Re: Crank Scrapers



Have you done dyno testing to see whether the L6 engine would benefit from a 1mm or 2.5mm placement?


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post #34 of 40 (permalink) Old 03-20-2007, 01:54 PM
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Re: Crank Scrapers

"Think for a moment about what you wrote.

You're subsuming that I would assume that people would use the L24 rods and that your use of L28 rods was unusual.

No. When I make stroker patterns for stock rods they are for the stock rod pushed out by half the stroke increase. That's what you got. It works out to be 2mm."



This statement above proves that YOU SIR know nothing about typical L6 stroker buildups as virtually NO ONE uses the L28 rods with the Maxima stroker crank.

Perhaps you should be the one that thinks before speaking.

And yes you egotistical jerk, I know scrapers do work because I have read articles in Car Craft and in Hot Rod magazine where they have dyno tested with crank scrapers and seen HP improvements. Why do you think I even bought your improperly designed product in the first place?

Just so you know you are coming off as a total Ass now to everyone with your recent responses.Keep up the good work



Post Edited (Mar 20, 11:28am)

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post #35 of 40 (permalink) Old 03-20-2007, 02:02 PM
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Re: Crank Scrapers

Also had you STUDIED a bit more perhaps you would have known that merely moving the **** bolt holes out still wouldn't have prevented the crankscraper from hitting on the rods, the counter weights, the sides of the counterweights and the raised casting ridges on the L6 main caps.

We wouldn't even be having this discussion had YOU STUDIED before selling an incorrectly designed product in the first place.



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post #36 of 40 (permalink) Old 03-20-2007, 10:26 PM
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Yep

"As for other L28 owners, well, how about this: When I picked up the blocks the owner had a Nismo competition pan and showed it to me. Scrapers all over."

Yep, that's why I mentioned the product to JeffP (I own one, but haven't dynoed it simply because of my previous experience gives me confidence that it's beneficial to the mix, and that's good enough for me!) and I think JeffP chimed in above with his reasons for not using it at that time---he bought the Nissan Competition Pan, and then spent a wheelbarrow of money cutting the sump to fit the 280ZX chassis which the Comp Pan was never meant to fit!

For me, what I would recomend to him now that I have done more research on the oil pan subject pursuant to my Bonneville Project would be to have a local fabricator make him a baffled trapdoor pan (actually the guy I have in mind uses proprietary ball & venturi pickup doors) in conjunction with the Crank Scraper relieved as Kevin Mentioned in his response to JeffP's post.

I like the Teflon-Lined Scrapers A LOT---I think it's a very good idea, and easily adaptable.

But I digress...


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post #37 of 40 (permalink) Old 03-20-2007, 10:38 PM
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LOL

"Start with Nissan. There is nothing particularly special about the straight six versus the straight four. Look at the L-series as it has progressed and then look at the KA engines then the SR engines. More and more windage control including massive use of scrapers -- that covers about 35-40 years."

LOL! Kevin, are you my long lost-at-birth brother? The one I got sutck with growing up is so diametrically my polar opposite when it comes to clear thinking logical engineering analysis it's not funny.

Can I adpot you as my little brother? (or big-brother, not sure on your age!)

Points well advised to be taken under advisement, I am continually telling people "Look what the OEM did during developmental work". Those guys have millions of dollars in their R&D budgets, and Legion Accountants who will cut out every possible cost to maximize profit by minimizing construction costs. If they can leave something inside, not seen, off and save even 50 Cents: THEY WILL! To find these items in new engines where they were previously not there, it should speak volumes on their effectiveness!

This goes towards a feud I had with Steve 280Z regarding counterflow injection. I could not give specific examples of where I'd seen it, or why I said what I said---simply because I had signed non-disclosure statements with companies (Kevin mentions one in an earlier post) that prevented me from discussing items for a period of years. It was great when they themselves revealed the technology in a trade publication, as that unbound me from my silence.

But the point remained that there was still a commentary disparaging the technology even when the proof WAS presented.

This brings me full circle to one of my earlier posts... I will not repeat myself, counter to prior habit... LOL


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post #38 of 40 (permalink) Old 03-20-2007, 10:39 PM
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Re: Yep

Tony D, I talked to the fabricator that came up with those trap doors at the PRI show and he related some dyno experience with scrapers at the 9:00 position with a full side kickout design.

He did not see an increase there but that is understandable. The flow of air in the kickout prevents scavenged oil from easily flowing downwards into the pan. Instead it is driven back into the rotating assembly. A better scraper design there would be on the floor as you can see in the Ford FE pan and also the 944/968 pans from Porsche. A scraper design that works on the downstroke quadrant would also be helpful. Dodge installed one of those in the 95 Neon 2.0. If you need some pics send me an email. Hope that is useful info.
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post #39 of 40 (permalink) Old 03-20-2007, 10:46 PM
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Testimonial:

"What I asked you for was testimonials from actual people who used your product and had no difficulty with the installation."

O.K., here goes:

I bought one of the Ishihara-Johnson Crank Scrapers off E-Bay (BTW, this has been put up on this site BEFORE---probably the last time this subject came up!)

Having made scrapers MYSELF before FROM SCRATCH, my comments may be a bit biased, but I believe my last testimonial said: BUY IT BUY IT BUY IT BUY IT! LOADS easier than making your own, and the trimming required is minimal.

Now maybe I may be a jaded person to make that statement: I may be thinking in my head that my trimming was minimal, but I may be comparing it with my experience of making the whole thing from scratch.

In any case, I haven't dynoed it and probably never will because I know what it's function is, and the horsepower gained in my application isn't my primary concern. My primary concern is that oil pumped up to the rotating assembly is KEPT IN THE PAN as quickly as possible. And one major way to accomplish that is SCRAPE IT OFF THE ROTATING ASSSEMBLY!

To there you have it. An L-6 Owner with THIS PRODUCT who is happy with it, and who is satisfied with the results obtained after it's installation.

Will that do?


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post #40 of 40 (permalink) Old 03-20-2007, 10:50 PM
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Re: Yep

I am working on aftermarket windage control for the 2ZZ at present. It is amazing to look at the engineering present, particularly in bays 3&4. Tuned expansion chambers no less and isolation of bays 1-2 from 3-4. Some similarity of other design details to the World engine. You can also see the SR20 in there. It is very clear that the companies keep close track of one-another's progress.

Had to laugh when I looked at the casting in the World 2.2/2.4 combo oil pump and balance shafts (1.8 lacks them) -- had an explicit statement that the design was patented. That's pretty blunt but I guess you have to be with all those waiting CMMs out there. ;-)

BTW, Toysport lent me the 2ZZ block and related that they have been making scrapers for the competition engines for, what, 25 years now?



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