Hey,
This is an update from my last post regarding this topic.
The last compression check I performed showed 90 psi on every cylinder. I checked my timing and it was way off, so I reset it to 13 degrees BTDC. No change in compression readings, so I went and bought a new compression gauge and these are the results of the new tests, both wet and dry.

DRY psi WET psi
#6 125 #6 153
#5 143 #5 155
#4 150 #4 170
#3 150 #3 170
#2 140 #2 150
#1 137 #1 154

As before I stated that when removing the spark plug wire from #3 cylinder there was no change in idle pitch, but the others all changed when their wires were removed. Now, #3 and #4 do not make any idle changes when their wires are removed. I tried swapping the wires and still no difference. If I have compression on those cylinders, wouldn't that show that they are operating normally? I am aware that the rings are probably worn or broken, but nonetheless, they are functioning. This leads me to believe that the spark plug wires may not be working or something else in the ignition circuit, however the engine starts up fine, but runs real rough. Now I also think fuel has something to do with it. I haven't yet checked the injectors or relays or the harness connections but it is next on my list. I checked to see if fuel is getting up past the fuel filter and it is there and has pressure (I don't have a fuel pressure gauge to be 100% sure though). I cranked the engine for a bit and fuel is coming out (into a container) but the fuel looks brown and dirty. I removed my fuel filter and inspected it (it's the nice aluminum expensive one from MSA that can be taken apart and cleaned) and it was full of brown crap and dirty fuel. I checked the fuel flow again this time without the filter and it looked like normal yellowish/clear gas. But I'm not sure if the pressure is what it should be. When cranked, the fuel comes out but not in a big steady burst, it's more like water coming out of a drinking fountain. I know that fuel is getting to the fuel rail, but I have yet to start trouble shooting that area.

Any advice or help is greatly appreciated (like usuall)

Thanks,

Bon

How does the car run on the road?

Ok, I think we found your problem. Huge amounts of rust!

I bet that the 3 and 4 injectors are clogged. drop and clean your tank, replace/cleanout your lines, and clean your injectors. I bet if you where to swap 3 and 4 out with others, it would fix 3 and 4, but break whatever ones you put the clogged injectors into. Don't just replace them, they will clog again.

Powerglide Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How does the car run on the road?

It runs real sluggish. Feels like there is no power when I step on it...
Also the exhaust tone sounds completely different... like it's muffled. It doesn't really roar like it did. Almost feels I'm like driving my old honda crx.

Bon

Your compression tests are a red herring you are wasting your time going any further along that route.

The problem is in fuel delivery or spark delivery to the two cylinders that are in question.

Nothing has changed since the last time you posted with 90psi across the board other than you have more nebulous numbers left open to interpretation as to technique and methodology.

The compression is NOT the problem!

What of the 'swap the injector connections' test you were given LAST time?
What of the 'spark plug check' mentioned LAST time?
What of any of the non-compression related tests mentioned LAST time?

You just spent a lot of time verifying something that already told you there was no problem with it in the first place. The only question was 'what the real numbers are'---but that was irrelevant then, as it is now!

If you simply ignore advice given because you're convinced it's got to be this-or-that, your repair of the REAL issue will long, convoluted, and frustrating.

I don't know, maybe that is what you want. There have been a few people here before that were more interested in talking to people about the problems, than actually listening and doing anything about them...

---

People Are Idiots, Just look around here and you will see!
Tony D: "Knowledgeable but Caustic"... rationull
You simply can't call someone a F**ktard here, no matter how truthful it is.
[www.ozdat.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was august 18, 10:56am.

Geking Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ok, I think we found your problem. Huge amounts
> of rust!
>
> I bet that the 3 and 4 injectors are clogged.
> drop and clean your tank, replace/cleanout your
> lines, and clean your injectors. I bet if you
> where to swap 3 and 4 out with others, it would
> fix 3 and 4, but break whatever ones you put the
> clogged injectors into. Don't just replace them,
> they will clog again.

The tank was supposedly dropped and cleaned before I bought the car. I have put seafoam in the tank several times and it seems to clean it up a bit but ends up running crappy again. The injectors is what I want to deal with next.. I'll need to get out the FI bible for this one. I'll check 3 and 4 and hopefully see what the deal is.

Bon

Tony D Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Your compression tests are a red herring you are
> wasting your time going any further along that
> route.
>
> The problem is in fuel delivery or spark delivery
> to the two cylinders that are in question.
>
> Nothing has changed since the last time you posted
> with 90psi across the board other than you have
> more nebulous numbers left open to interpretation
> as to technique and methodology.
>
> The compression is NOT the problem!


>
> What of the 'swap the injector connections' test
> you were given LAST time?
> What of the 'spark plug check' mentioned LAST
> time?
> What of any of the non-compression related tests
> mentioned LAST time?
>
> You just spent a lot of time verifying something
> that already told you there was no problem with it
> in the first place. The only question was 'what
> the real numbers are'---but that was irrelevant
> then, as it is now!
>
> If you simply ignore advice given because you're
> convinced it's got to be this-or-that, your repair
> of the REAL issue will long, convoluted, and
> frustrating.
>
> I don't know, maybe that is what you want. There
> have been a few people here before that were more
> interested in talking to people about the
> problems, than actually listening and doing
> anything about them...

Tony,

I know that compression is not the problem now. I just wanted to show the results of the tests. That's all.
I have read over and over your advice on my last post and I am going that route. I just haven't started that yet... as a matter of fact, I was planning on doing it Tomorrow morning... all of the tips you and the others have listed. I just wanted to do another compression test and see what my fuel was doing before it reached the fuel injection area. Believe me I do appreciate and WILL utilize your advice.
I have never experienced troubleshooting the fuel injection system, but I am going to get out the FSM and my FI bible and follow YOUR tips to see what I can find. Hopefully I can locate the culprit.
I'll keep you updated.

Thanks,

Bon

"I just wanted to do another compression test and see what my fuel was doing before it reached the fuel injection area."

1) another compression test did nothing to give you that information.

2) changing your timing did nothing to give you that information.

3) you wasted two steps doing those things---which were superflous, a waste of time, for nothing other than....what, again?

The point being the FIRST compression test told you everything was O.K.
I am still unclear as to why you did it again. To post the numbers? To what end? It's unrequired information, all your diagnosis was accomplished during the first test and you needed to move on.

You did not move on.

Tests are tests, if you don't believe the results, then troubleshooting is a futile effort.

If you don't believe your instruments, all is lost.

You needed to do what you were told in the last post, rather than going and getting another comrpession tester and doing a useless test.

I just get frustrated when people seemingly ignore the advice given and then waste time trying to get a set of results that 'fits in their box'...

Which is what it appears you were doing. As stated in replies to your last post, by more than just me, the numbers are really 'irrelevant' because you had even numbers across the board, likely nothing was the matter and you could more on...

You didn't.

One of the things you need to understand is that things don't work out as nicely as they do in the books. Sometimes you will not get "X" or "Y" but may get "Z"... And even though it isn't in the book just that way doesn't mean anything is wrong. Subjective testing is called that for a reason---the numbers have to be analyzed and a decision made based on that testing.

It's much easier to do the simple functional tests first (swapping plugs and sparkies) to see if a fault follows to narrow your focus rather than checking everything and then trying to figure out what is wrong based on a bunch of unrelated raw numbers that you got.

Frankly, the compression test would be something well towards the end of my testing regimen to check a 'dead cylinder' like you are describing. Matter of fact, I wouldn't really consider it...a test such as that is something that is done during a major tune up/service---like every 15 or 30K miles. Those numbers don't change. It's not a 'first tier' reason that something isn't working.

Bad Plug wires? Fouled Plugs? Bad/Clogged Injectors? Bad Rotor Button in Dissy/Bad Dissy Cap?

FAR more likely for the scenario you are having than some loss of compression. Before I checked compression for sudden unexplained loss of power I would have checked those things.

Hell, with a VOM testing your plug wires will tell you if they are bad. Anything more than 1000 Ohms per foot and they're pooched. Toss em. Spark Plug Wires are consumable items these days due to their construction. The do not last forever.

And if you have a bad wire...then the plug gets fouled with fuel and won't light off. Now you have a 'precipitate failure'---one component caused another to fail.

But I just didn't see any reason at all to do another test after you found the same cylinder pressure in all cylinders on the first one. It was a done issue then. Problem is, now people will see the varying numbers and tell you something is wrong...something you aren't going to be able to do anything about, and on cylinders that are not causing you a problem!

---

People Are Idiots, Just look around here and you will see!
Tony D: "Knowledgeable but Caustic"... rationull
You simply can't call someone a F**ktard here, no matter how truthful it is.
[www.ozdat.com]

Tony,
I understand. Thanks for clearing it up. I just don't have alot of troubleshooting experience on cars. I'm a novice, but I want to learn how to crew this car the right way, by going the right avenues in troubleshooting and doing it -how do they say, process of elimination (simple things first) - I mean, I can troubleshoot malfuntions on a C-130 on a daily basis, but it's a tad bit different being a military aircraft mech as opposed to a home car mechanic. Can't skip steps in my job, but I tend to do so in my home garage when my Z is broke. That's just the inexperience working- which is what I did here. I will try to troubleshoot in a more logical manner from now on.
You are right about wasting time. I spent all this morning doing compression checks and fuel pressure checks and blah blah blah, blah blah. I could've just went right to the FI system and started there. However, I really was curious on what my compression was. I just shouldn't have posted that. BTW, adjusting the timing and getting a better compression gauge and re-doing the test was advice actually given to me on the other post, so that's what I did. But hey, now I know the compression of all of my cylinders. Irrelevant to the current problem at hand, yes. But at least I know the numbers. So, the problem at hand. I will start doing these tests and checks tomorrow. Thanks for input and advice on proper troubleshooting. BTW, just so you know, I usually print out your post(s) solutions so I can have them for reference. That's how valuable I hold your advice and suggestions when I work on my own car.

Thanks, Tony

Bon

LOL Bon,
I just had a schpiel about yes, being a licensed mechanic. No I am not an automotive mechanic, etc... consulting because the finer points are not the same..blah blah..
I'm an Industrial Mechanic Millwright, so yes, similar in a lot of things, but not an auto mech. Sounds like you're on the same curve!

---

I'm concerned with all the rampant sex and nudity on TV but all I can do is sit at home shaking my fist.

"I mean, I can troubleshoot malfuntions on a C-130 on a daily basis, but it's a tad bit different being a military aircraft mech as opposed to a home car mechanic. Can't skip steps in my job, but I tend to do so in my home garage when my Z is broke."

THAT IS YOUR PROBLEM!

The Z-Car is NO DIFFERENT than the C130.

I supported F15C/D airframes. The troubleshooting is always the same five steps they taught you in Tech School Identify, Verify, whatever the last three are... that was 20+ years ago for me...

I remember one incident where there was a Weapons Release problem on a C-Model. Schematic was 15 feet long. I was NOT a WR Tech. Hell, I wasn't F15 anything, but the people doing the work were all blaming the A.G.E. Equipment for having faulty power saying they couldn't find the issue because of it. I went along with my supervisor to the stand, and proceeded to TROUBLESHOOT THEIR SYSTEM AND TELL THEM WHERE THE PROBLEM WAS to prove it wasn't A.G.E. issues. It was a bad connection in a cannon plug on about foot 12 of 15.

Step-By-Step, Point-by-Point --- knowing nothing about that system other than how to read the standard Milspec Schematic and Wiring Daigrams in the T.O. allowed me to take on that system and diagnose it in about 20 minutes.

EVERY one of those guys was skipping a step, or IGNORING/DISREGARDING the information their instruments gave them. Three of them ADMITTED they all saw the SAME discontinuity in the SAME cannon plug we did, but ignored or outright dismissed it ("it CAN'T be that easy!") and after 8+ hours fighting with it, they started to blame phantoms.

I got a three-day pass from that little 'instructional experience'...

But don't change. The same things that work on the C130 (methodology wise) are the same things that work on the Z. Get the FSM, follow the steps.

Always ask for guidance when you need it. I COULD NEVER have found ANY of those damn checkpoints on the WR System if the guys who knew the system didn't point them out to me and Ricky to be able to check them. But component location is something you pick up with exposure to any given system.

The most important thing to learn is proper troubleshooting METHODOLOGY.

That, and that alone, is universal, and will work on ANY platform.

If you start using your C130 Methodology insofar as HOW you approach a problem, you will be MUCH BETTER SERVED and much more fruitful in your troubleshooting efforts!

UASF 423X5, Course 6ABR423X5, Chanute AFB Illinios, Class 840806S, Honor Graduate.

---

People Are Idiots, Just look around here and you will see!
Tony D: "Knowledgeable but Caustic"... rationull
You simply can't call someone a F**ktard here, no matter how truthful it is.
[www.ozdat.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit was august 18, 01:28pm.

I saw that. I don't think I will bother to even revisit the subject.

That is, until 'my answers' are proffered.

Easyguy, ever seen what happens if you don't follow the funky torque pattern to the center section of an Elliott ET18 Turbocharger when either assembling it, or disassembling it?

Center bearing bores get tweaked out of line, causing oil leakage and failure almost like clockwork, right at 22 hours +/- 1 hour. It's freaky. And up to that point in time, I accepted that "That was Aircraft Stuff and this is Industrial Stuff, so I better listen to the guy that's telling me 'you just tighten it from the center out in a circle' and everything will be fine." LAST time I just 'winged it' in regards to torque diagrams!

After that point, I stuck with my initial USAF Training, amongst other things, and it's served me well.

---

People Are Idiots, Just look around here and you will see!
Tony D: "Knowledgeable but Caustic"... rationull
You simply can't call someone a F**ktard here, no matter how truthful it is.
[www.ozdat.com]

Can't say as I've ever seen an Elliott ET18 turbocharger, so odds are likely not.
But I have seen what happens when you don't follow not only the individual torque pattern for the parts, but the system as a whole for the SO2 gas turbine (18' diameter fan on a 34 foot shaft through various output and one centerpositioned input gears) when you tear it down for service and you don't follow the steps for the parts and the series it has to be done for the components themselves to maintain stress ballancing on the shaft as it is torn down.

My millitary time was spent as a recon soldier. Sneak, observe, take mental note, leave. Here's an extra clip for your pistol, soldier. Try not to get caught and if they do happen to find you, shoot and run. You've only got 2 clips total, keep track of how many times you fire. Pat Pat Pat.

---

I'm concerned with all the rampant sex and nudity on TV but all I can do is sit at home shaking my fist.

'precipitate failure'... We have these scenarios at work all the time but I've never heard anyone label a name to it! Thanks..

You're absolutely right, Tony. Just follow the steps. Sometimes, when I read my FSM, it feels like I'm reading a USAF T.O. But, it is much simpler and easier to read than the TOs that I use on the One-thirty. Tech data, tach data, dech data... use your job guides when doing mx. LOL, seriously, I am at work now I need to go work my aircraft... whenever the hell it comes down.
Thanks for advice. I will definately use it to my mechanical advantage.
I like to crew my car the way I crew a C130... Fix it like you're gonna fly it... or Fix it like you are going to drive it. I even have a set of mx forms, in a binder, in which I record the discrepancies on the car. Sounds corny, but, yeah... I do that. My crew chief pride is starting to show....

Carry on!

Bon

" I even have a set of mx forms, in a binder, in which I record the discrepancies on the car. Sounds corny, but..."

What?

AF Form 244, red diag and red x...

Odd thing was, I made those before I went through that training, because the old German Engineer that taught me about the VW Engines kets scrupulous records on the condition of the vehicle. Being started out that way, it became natural, and I thought 'everybody' did it. All the guys I knew did...then again, they were all Engineers. Several worked on Apollo Projects at Jackson, so I guess I was warped at an early age! LOL

It's how I know, for instance, that the price of gasoline in Tawas Michigan went from .68 a gallon to $1.41 in the span of one month (June, 1981)...

When you know where you were, and where you are...it gets easy to make the decisions.

Besides, if you 'drop' a project along the way...those records will [i]save your a$$ when it comes time to pick it up again years later!

And the projects WILL get 'dropped'---you never think they will, but life happens, and suddenly it's been 10 years since you drove your car and you go "Man, time flies!"

---

People Are Idiots, Just look around here and you will see!
Tony D: "Knowledgeable but Caustic"... rationull
You simply can't call someone a F**ktard here, no matter how truthful it is.
[www.ozdat.com]

No doubt, man. No Doubt. Glad to know I'm not the only one who records what's wrong with his car... LOL. Besides, it also helps me keep track of all the damned money that I spend on zparts and helps me decide when preventative mx and when corrective maintenance is needed...
But my records are not as anal as the Air Force likes to keep theirs.... You were in MX, remember QA?

Bon

Tony said:

Quote:

UASF 423X5, Course 6ABR423X5, Chanute AFB Illinios, Class 840806S, Honor Graduate.

So Tony, either:

1) You have an incredible memory for recalling details from 20+ years ago
or
2) You have detailed records withing easy reach so you can pull your diploma and quote from it
or
3) You were so proud to be an Honor Graduate that you had the information tatooed around the circumference of your belly button.

Please tell me it's number 3 . . . :-)

---

Yellow - 71 240 '82 L28/P79 SU carbs, elect fuel pump, Holley regulator, 15K on stock rebuild, stock exh man, 2.5 exhaust, GM HEI, ZX alternator, Tokico Illuminas, Swastika wheels, Del Sol seats.

Blue - 73 240, '83 ZXT swap, ECCS, junkyard screamer. Miata seats!

If you have ever filled out an eagle-teat-suckling civil service employment form, you realize how many times you write that information down?

After I completed filling out the shipping forms for my 73 (Government Paperwork) I knew my VIN as well...

It's just repetition.

Though I find sometimes my numbers are getting jumbled as I age.

---

People Are Idiots, Just look around here and you will see!
Tony D: "Knowledgeable but Caustic"... rationull
You simply can't call someone a F**ktard here, no matter how truthful it is.
[www.ozdat.com]

I got blindsided on a QA Eval on a hydraulic pump replacement... Guy came up after being sent over by the shop chief. Apologized that he was 'going to have to fail' me on the inspection and went to it.
It ended up in arguments over the definition of a drip/seep -vs- a leak (T.O. Says anything less than 3DPM is a 'seep' and not a fail criteria, and the ONE -24 line he found that on was red-diag in the forms BY ME and parts were O/O for a replacement fitting)

I ended up getting a Z.D. on the eval, which was one of only 6 given out by that inspector the entire year (two others were mine as well...) and of everyone in the shop E6 and above it was the ONLY time they have EVER heard of any sort of hydraulic unit getting a ZD on a QA Eval.

That was another three day pass situation...LOL

That QA guy was a sneaky bastard, too! One time I was doing something around one end of a unit and he walked up "Airman, where is your T.O.?"

Well....I didn't have one. But without missing a beat,I said "it's on the other end of the unit away from all this Mil-H-5606" (or was it synthetic???) I gave him the T.O. number "33D2-XXX-XXX-4" (can't remember that number now...) Section 4 Maintenance, then referenced the page number and paragraph number of the operation I was performing. Then I admitted "But in fact, I should have T.O. 1-1A-15, and 1-1A-8 here as well as I am performing general wiring and hardware maintenance and removal operations."

He just kinda stood there, dazed for a second, mumbled " I guess you do have it" and just walked away without checking! WOOHOO

Then I beelined it to the Tech Library and got the T.O. and brought it out to the unit!!!

"Follow the directions" really kinda makes it easy. There's really little reason memorizing or taking the time to retain stuff that is written down. It's more important to know where to find it. I knew guys who knew lists upon lists of part numbers and always wondered why they wasted time actually memorizing that stuff. Mine came from repititon mostly, and because I couldn't help but remember the stuff it was so ingrained. But seeing guys all upset because they couldn't remember a part number always puzzled me "That's why they have I.P.B's dude!"

Actually, that QA guy brought a Fairlady Z back to AZ and lives out in Chandler now... Nice car, if he ever gets it running...

---

People Are Idiots, Just look around here and you will see!
Tony D: "Knowledgeable but Caustic"... rationull
You simply can't call someone a F**ktard here, no matter how truthful it is.
[www.ozdat.com]